hi all
Heres the deal I have 2 complete IHI turbos. What I was thinking is Getting the summit $99 long tube headers and mounting the turbos under the car. Making 2x3 box tubing sub connectors and using them as my inlet ducting to the throttle body. No intercooler as this pointas it will be 10 psi max.(for now at least). Considering I work at an auto repair shop and already have the turbos I'm going for low buck. Less than $500. Injectors, ecm and other parts are not a problem as I have free access to what ever I may need at little or no cost.(perks of being in the industry) Do you think its feasible? I saw the undercar turbo mount on Two Guys Garage and I figured why not? All input will be greatly appreciated.
louie
by the way the car is an 88 5.0 sport T-Bird.
louie
Those so pistons are not forged and won't handle boost very well.
Also you will need a boost retard,colder plugs,you already know about bigger injectors and such.
How are you going to control fuel with the bigger injectors when not in boost,you'll have quite a few driveability issues with speed density so a maf conversion will be necessary.
If you can do it and have it be reliable for 500 bucks i'd congradulate you but i don't think it's possible.
I'll use the s/o short block till it pops.The later model 5.0 HO has cast pistons and they run 10 psi of boost all day.I'm thinking using a 91 crown vic ecm w/maf. A jegs fmu 1.7 cobra rockers(buddy has a set in a drawer) 19 lb injectors with about 40 psi of fuel pressure. Now keep in mind this is still in the planning stages.Also a set of E5se heads off a 351w Holley 4bbl 84 F-150 with 1.84 intakes and 74 or 76cc chamber with a mild port.(also free). I'm on a mission to do the worlds cheapest turbo conversion in history.By the way I have $0 in the IHIs. One is comming out of the 88 TC. The other was given to me last week. So please I need as much brainstorming as you all can muster up. I really think I can pull this off.
louie
p.s. all parts used will be scrounged begged borrowed or donated.Or bought as cheap as possible. Nothing new.
I think IHI's would suck on a 5.0, even with twins. They're just too small. You car would end up making a buttload of torque down low and you wouldn't have any help up top.
Thats why keeping maximum flow potential on the low side is what i'm thinking.Not going for maximum hp but for a torque curve from hell. Keep the 2.73 posi 8.8 and AOD. Don't spin it over 5000 rpm. This car would be the ultimate highway cruiser. Not a drag car but a car that pulls hard from 70-120.
Not to sound needy but please all ideas and opinions are wanted and needed. OR if you think I'm totally whacked I want to know.Because knowing is half the battle.
louie
The IHI are somewhat small on the 140 cid 2.3. But I really want to hear how this thing works for you. Good luck and keep us updated
Not sure what HO your talking about with cast pistons but all roller 5.0L HO's from mid 85to92 where trw forged pistons(fact not fiction).
Using one from a pre 85 is useless in stock form.
Doing all that work to blow a piston/s on the first run is not really worth it man(and it will happen)cast WILL NOT handle boost.
91 Crown vic to my knowledge was 4.6L,pretty sure even if they where 5.0Ls they where so and not maf.
The fmu will work but your stock pump will not work with it as there is barley enough fuel for the stock application yet being boosted.
Get a cheap set of E7TE heads(50bucks),they will be better than the E5SE's any day.
The 1.7s is a good idea and the 19lber's will work for a little while with the correct fmu.
I hate to burst this idea man cause it sounds like you have great intentions but with the plans you have you have a very big BOOOOOOOOOOOM knocka,knocka,knocka,siezed!!!!!!! in your future.
This would be a much better plan:
Find an HO 86-92 (93 had the wrong pistons but are better than cast)It will already come with the e7te's,better cam and 19lbers,get the fmu,a walbro 255lph and a boost retard off ebay(cheaper than jegs).
Find a maf stang in the wreckers(i know hard to find) and get the maf and eec.
If the turbos are plumbed correctly,there is enough fuel and enough retard this may work and last at 10psi
All told parts off ebay should be:
walbro 255lph: $69.99
fmu: $89.99
Boost retard: usually about $100.00(corral would be your best bet).
eec: $150.00
maf: $25.00 right now on ebay buy it now.
So right there you at $435ish+shipping so say there's your $500.00
Another 500 for an engine and for 1000.00 it may be doable but there's just no way for 500 bucks.
If you do it that way you'll have fuel and timing retard,2 things essental for boost and an engine that can handle boost in the first place.
Or you could buy my ceramic coated twin turbo headers;)
The problem with mounting them under the car would be making room for them. If you've ever swapped your h-pipe you'll know that space is at a premium down there. The other problem is oil drain back. This is why most of the twin turbo kits mount the turbos up high in the front of the engine bay. They fit well there and you can get the oil back to the pan with out some sort of pump system.
My headers are from an ITS kit. I bought them when they were going out of business. I was just never lucky enough to find a couple IHI's and get the project off the ground.
Even though the IHI's might be a bit on the small side, it doesnt mean you wont run low 11's with them.
Do those headers have T3 s, or T4 s? Cuz they look kinda like T4 s from that angle...
Also, dominator, the '91 Crown Vic still had the 5.0. The Crown Vic and Thunderbird didn't go to the 4.6 until '94.
Yea but red if it still did have the 5.0L is wasn't HO and i know that for a factso the maf and eec would not be useable if it was even maf and i doubt that too.
You selling those headers???
thanx 4 the replies. to clear up a few things. the 91 CV is 5.0 SO MAF. The HO with the cast pistons is the 94-95 sn-95.How many of them have vortex blowers running 10 psi? the piston is not the issue what matters more is the state of tune. Icould see forged pistons for 15+ psi but I'm only going 10 max.I'm not looking to build a race car but a nice DD. I'm keeping the AOD and 2.73 gears. basically i want to cruise at 70 lay into it a little and run 100 no problem. Not peak hp but a broad torque curve. I know about turbos and tuning I'm an ASE certified auto tech by trade.In fact we have a couple of turbo fords at the shop. my 88 tc which has 200k mi and still pulls like a sonbitch.and bossmans 86 svo making 350 flywheel hp(where my t-3 came from put t3/04 hybrid on svo).And a mid 70's pinto with 88 tc drivetrain. We also used to play with ministockers sanctioned by FASCAR. So we know what we are doing. Any thing could be done with enough time patience and fab work. Mounting them under the car is feasible.all you would need is a pump on the return side of the turbo oil system. and maybe a water return pump no biggie a trip to grainger.I was thinking about cutting the floor under the back seat and recessing the turbos there. heat really shouldn't be a problem but a heat shield should fix any problems.Oh and i saw in another thread about 8.8 rears in non turbo 88 t-birds. my sport has 8.8 w/2.73 and trac-lok.
sorry for the rant. I just thought you guys would be interested in a super low buck turbo build.
louie
From what I got he was pretty set on running the SO :dunno:
Anyway. I thought '94-95 HO's had hypereutectic pistons in them, not cast.
4 bolt rectangular T3 s. IHI's would bolt right up.
Yes, PM me if interested.
Some people have run the IHI's with out the water just fine. If you do you need to idle the car for a few minutes before shutting down like you would any other non water cooled turbo.
So plumbing the IHI's for water isn't even required.
I can't believe your selling those. You may have just single handily changed my entire setup. lol.
hypereutectic is a cast piston. hypereutectic means that the aluminum alloy has an extremly high silicon content.
louie
Yes but a hypereutectic piston(SILICONE IMPREGNATED,WAY STRONGER) is way better suited to boost than a cast piston,still not the gretest piston for boost though.
I am also a Liscensed Class A tech and i have a supercharged 5.0L HO in my ride.
I have done months upon months of research to make sure i didn't get boom knocka/knocka and i haven't.
You can run boost on hyper pistons but it is not recomended do some research.
What you propose is a good idea but you can't do it for that cheap and have it be reliable is what i and everyone else is trying to tell you.
You asked for input and your getting it, just because it's not what you want to hear don't rant about it.
If you could run cast pistons with boost why would we need forged???????????
Don't you think that there are people out there like myself that no how to tune a boosted ride properly and not have detonation????
Those pistons will not take that kind of compression pressure or HP let alone if not tuned absolutley perfect, which for 500bucks and with no wideband or tuner is impossible,even withthe most experienced tuner by your side.
It's like Driving towards a brick wall with a blindfold on.
Just because your a tech does not mean you know how to tune a boosted vehicle,where do they teach that in school?????
Some of us on here know alot more than you think why do you think your getting these responses????????????
Well, it's not technically a cast piston. At any rate, hypereutectics tend to "flake" under detonation, rather than shatter like a cast piston usually will do.
The '91 C' Vics and Grand M's did use MAF in CA... AFIK that's the only year with MAF and SO 5.0...
I don't see any major holes in your plans(at least till the pistons go BOOM :hick: )... IF you start low boost and work your way up(avoiding detonation), I'd think it would be reliable at 7-8 lbs...
Thanx for the replies guys.Sorry, Didn't mean to come off like a prick if thats what you gathered. The thing is the wife doesn't want me to spend money on the cars unless they need work.(they all run extremly well). I have to pull this off for next to nothing. If it goes boom I have another SO to go in. I just have all these parts that I have no money in and I wanted to see if it could be done. By the way I also scored the intercooler off the svo so i could use it. and there are header s at the shop (used but free) for a small block so i might make headers. I wanted to put the turbos under the car because its different and they run cooler. Like i said I want to recess them under the rear seat and make a heat shield and a bash plate w/scoop to keep airflow. There is a kit I believe made by sts that mounts the turbos where the ler goes. They have proven that it can work.you just need a pump on the oil return line. All the parts I have ,both turbos, ecm, Maf, fuel injectors, heads,intercooler,I have about $20 in them. All i have to buy is exhaust pipe and some bends. A fuel pump and a afpr. I did my 3G conversion for less than $47 including alt and 4 ga cable. I'm into low buck not just for the I did it when they said it couldn't be done factor but it also makes my marriage happier.(wife looks at a car as transpo only.) So once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
louie
Np man,provide pics and let us know if it works.
How will they be lubricated?
Study: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=2028
I did mine with a $15(plus $3 core) 130A alt and feed wire from a Taurus wagon from U-Wrench-it... 2 1/2 years and about 200 dragstrip passes it's doin' fine... I have the two speed fan from a another Taurus wagon to install also...
Mine too, but she learned a long time ago to not mess with my car dealin's, whether I'm the payer or the payee...
the way they will be lubricated is with a 3/8" steel tubing coming off the pressure port behind the p/s pump. Then a small electric pump on the return side then back to the motor. Same for the water lines.I amgoing to convert to MAF w/91 CV 5.0 ECM. Low pressure(7-8 psi) intercooler off 86 svo. All my plumbing will be done w/ exhaust pipe.
louie
3/8" is bigger than you need...
Most people use -8 AN lines, or 3/16" brake line (maybe 1/4" at most)
well heres the scoop guys.wife says i can do the car but I have to fix the 92 GM.(broke tranny). Then she gives me back the turbo.then I install t-3 and exhaust,and swap out abs(pressure switch bad cost $100 for a used one can convert for $70) then the sport comes off the road and I start the project. V8demon thanks for the link. I wonder if a brake booster check valve might work in this situation? I know this can be done. We do alot of performance work at the shop so between the 3 of us we know we can pull this off. Once more thanx guys I will keep y'all posted on updates.
louie
I knew the '91 Vic 5.0 was an SO motor, but they were Mass Air as well?
i dont get this whole "lubrication issue" on the turbine shaft (s). If your simply feeding oil from where the pres switch is located, it stands to reason that if you have good to great oil presure arriving at the turbo, it will be pushed back to the pan due to said presure no matter the location of the turbo. Its just a simple bushing with an allowable oil clearance tolerance, so presure will be felt there and after the bushing. Sure it might take longer for the return line to fill up and start dribbling back to the pan but id bet it would work if the turbo were a little lower than whats considered normal.
this is like saying we all need a pump to push our fuel back into the tank cause the return line has to go uphill to enter the top of the tank.
i was never aware that any of the turbo lubrication depended on gravity alone.,, that would not make sense especially how chrysler did the dodge daytona turbo.
I have one of those in my garage now and the oil feed line starts where the sender is and traverses up hill then back down hill to the turbo. The oil lubs the shaft then leaves going uphill slightly to the oil pan.
maybe im an idiot.:hick:
There have been many remote turbo setups created Scott. All of them use a return pump. Without it the turbo simply belches smoke.