Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

General => General Fox T-Bird/Cougar Discussion => Topic started by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 02:22:37 PM

Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 02:22:37 PM
Ok guys, I need some help. I finally located the problem with my ABS system today. After disabling my electric fans from turning on with the key in the "on" position, I was able to run a test which I normally couldn't do because I wasn't able to hear anything.

I pumped my brakes 20 or so times, turned the key to "ON", and sure enough, the pump motor only ran for a few seconds before shutting off. Same thing when I pushed down on the pedal. Only ran for a couple of seconds and shut off. The FAQ I was reading from NATO proceeded to inform me that my ABS Accumulator was bad.

My question is, 1) Where can I get one, and 2) Has anyone removed the accumulator before?

I've looked on Motorcraft's website, and can't locate the device. I've been told Ford still sells them for about $140, but again, the website yields nothing.

As for replacing it....The job looks nightmarish. All those vacuum lines, electrical wire looms, and the Wiper Motor are in the way. Does anyone have any suggestions?

(For what it's worth, if I were to continue driving around with a Bad Accumulator, would it eventually cause my Power Brakes to fail? Or would it just affect the ABS?)

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/nightmare.jpg)
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 04:17:19 PM
1. The accumulator is supposed to shut off
2. The accumulator has a 75% fail rate when dissassembled from the m/c, that's why NAPA and the like only sell the whole unit together, and why it's $1400.

Are you having any problems with the brakes?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Dogcharmer on April 18, 2007, 05:18:20 PM
Your brakes wont fail but you better have a strong leg. When my ABS system stopped working I had manual brakes. I ended up wiring a fog light relay to the hyd motor through the BOO switch so the motor would activate whenever I hit the brakes or I could turn it on and off when I wanted to. It was a good "temporary fix" because at least I had power brakes again. The reason you want to be able to turn it off is because the motor makes some funny noises if you leave it running too long (such as sitting in rush hour traffic). Kind of a PITA but at least its a cheap 'stop gap' measure until you can afford to pony up $1400 bux.

I'll see if I can dig up the info on which wires need to be spliced into... I actually wrote it all down because it took a while to figure out the wiring diagram and learn what did what.

Remembering this makes me realize how much I love having simple vacuum boosted brakes!
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 05:42:59 PM
First to Mr.Aerobird:
The problem I'm having with my system is almost exactly what is described in problem #7 on this Troubleshooting (http://"http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/TEVES%20II%20ELECTRO-HYDRAULIC%20BRAKING%20SYSTEM%2087-88%20TCs.htm") Page.

Therefore, I am changing the Accumulator.

I am not having any problems with braking. I am having a continuous problems with the warning lights coming on however.


AND FINALLY, the accumulator I have on my car is ALREADY bad. ALREADY BAD. Taking it off doesn't worry me one bit. Obviously if I purchase a NEW ONE one from Ford, it will not be bad (Seeing as its...oh...NEW),  and I will only be putting it on, and not putting it on, pressurizing the system, and then taking it off again. So saying:
"2. The accumulator has a 75% fail rate when dissassembled from the m/c, that's why NAPA and the like only sell the whole unit together, and why it's $1400."
really doesn't bother me much.

As for having to buy the whole unit, again, The Accumulator can be purchased from Ford as a single part, and evidently elsewhere as several members of NATO have informed me of this as well.

So, has anyone done this job before?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:02:37 PM
OK, so you have both warning lights come on when you brake hard? With no decrease in braking power? And you followed Jeff's solution to a T? The accumulator comes on with every pump? Just want to make sure the accumulator is the actual problem before throwing $$$ at it.

Also, it's not the accumulator that breaks, it's the master cylinder itself. I didn't make that very clear, but the m/c itself has a 75% fail rate with a new accumulator, which is why nobody sells them seperately. There's a TSB or DSB somewhere from when Ford found this out.

NAPA Part #'s:
Reman ABS compi - # UP 560050, $374.00 plus $100.00 core charge
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator - # UP 540105, $1,769.00 plus $100 core charge

Rock Auto Part #'s:
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator (Raybestos)- # ABS540105, $1,363.79 plus $100.00 core charge
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator (A1 Cardone)- # 123420, $1,187.99 plus $100.00 core charge
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 06:19:05 PM
It's not a good sign when the ABS unit costs more than the car did.....

Look, rather than applying for another part time job so I can afford this device, I'm going to take my chances with a new accumulator. If anything goes wrong, I'm not going to blame anyone here, it'll be all on me. I understand what you're saying, and I'm going to risk it. If everything fails, I'll switch to power brakes....or my car will have been totaled.

I just wanted to know if anyone here has done what I'm about to attempt?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:23:44 PM
That's what I'm trying to tell you, NOBODY sells just the accumulator. Not Ford, not NAPA, not ANYBODY. You can *try* to find a used one, which may or may not work. I still say you need to find out the real issue.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
The accumulator is the issue. I did all the tests in the world today. I followed that FAQ word to word. It's the Accumulator.

Now, about finding one. Why would my Ford dealer tell me they carry it? Are they lying to me?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:28:20 PM
Ford has NOT sold the accumulator by itself since 1988. NOBODY sells it without the m/c, NOBODY. If you don't feel like dropping $1300-$1800 on one, get a used one or swap to non-ABS.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:28:58 PM
Ford carries the accumulator with the m/c, it's $1,556.18, unknown # left in stock (that usually means a few dealers had one, but they haven't inventoried in 5 years).
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:30:58 PM
Correction, they have not sold it since 7/87. $290.32 according to the Motorcraft book. Dealer network search shows 3 in the entire US. Good luck, I hope your m/c is one of the 25%.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:35:35 PM
This is a very, very long shot.

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getLocator&siteid=214290&chapter=DN2FD0&appSectionid=18&groupid=10002&subgroupid=60015&make=10&model=Thunderbird&year=1988&catalogid=1

Accumulator, to 7/87      87-88  List - $290.32    Price - $205.20
Accumulator, from 7/87    88-91  List - $244.55     Price - $172.85

I have NO idea who these guys are, whether the parts are in stock, or if their Nigerian or not. Your $$$ if you want to risk it. It's the ONLY company I can find with them...
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 18, 2007, 06:43:52 PM
Varsity Ford in Michigan has them. Under the website, "Newfordparts.com" It's in the United states. That's where I'm getting it from.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Beau on April 18, 2007, 09:02:18 PM
You could always sell it and buy another TC :flame:
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DakotaEpic on April 18, 2007, 11:16:24 PM
Jeese.  Just do the same conversion RedLX did.  Pretty sure he said that it was cheap, and he loves it.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Ifixyawata on April 18, 2007, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: DakotaEpic;141207
Jeese.  Just do the same conversion RedLX did.  Pretty sure he said that it was cheap, and he loves it.

Dude... DMC doesn't like to do stuff the easy way.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: xtremer-pxl on April 18, 2007, 11:52:52 PM
I say go with vacuum assisted brake setup. I priced it out and it was gonna be about $130 for everything.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: V8Demon on April 19, 2007, 12:23:13 AM
Shoulda never got rid of the other car.......You knew what was wrong with THAT one.  What'll go next on this?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: stuntmannick on April 19, 2007, 04:16:23 AM
Seriously, why would you pay that much for brakes for a TC?  Find some junk yards if you just want to throw money at the "problem".  Paying more for brakes than the car is a bad choice IMO.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Red_LX on April 19, 2007, 03:54:41 PM
Yeah dude, just convert to vacuum assisted brakes. It's no harder than trying to fix something on the ABS master cylinder, except that vac assisted brakes don't have any stupid electronic gizmos to go out.

If you have a junkyard near you, grab a booster from a fox mustang, go to the parts store and get a new '86 SVO (1 1/4" bore) or '85 Lincoln Town Car (1" bore) master cylinder, both under $40 new including the core charge, and get the brake line and fittings you need. If you don't come in under $100 I'd be surprised. I have a writeup on how to do it both here, and on turboford in the FAQ's.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: ZondaC12 on April 19, 2007, 04:18:24 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;141237
Shoulda never got rid of the other car.......You knew what was wrong with THAT one. What'll go next on this?

 
shiznit. he is NEVER gonna stop takin' flak for this is he? :rollin:
 
poor guy:(  i know ive made my share of less-than-optimal decisions, nuttin worse than the regret afterwards. all i can do is wish i had better judgement. "young and stupid"....
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 19, 2007, 06:15:47 PM
Soon as 5-lug happens or the ABS takes a dump I'm ripping EVERYTHING out of my car. No more 2-year only TC-specific brakes for me, I USE them too much! :hick:
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Kitz Kat on April 19, 2007, 06:25:05 PM
Stick a hole in the floor where big work boots!
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: 88turbo on April 19, 2007, 07:55:12 PM
convert to vacuum brakes already...  its not that hard and it will be cheaper than your accumulator.  this is what I did and I love them..
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 20, 2007, 07:15:58 AM
I shoulda checked out this thread sooner...

You guys are babbling about shoulda done this, change the thing to vac booster, etc. BULL shiznit!!!. DMC apparently HAS done his home work and 99.9% likely has a bad accumulator. The one was bad on my white TC when I bought it back in '97.. Had the same symptoms with pump short cycling and BOTH the ABS and Brake lights coming on under heavy braking... If you don't change it, nothing else is going to fail. Biggest issue is no reserve so if the electrical(ign switch) is off you have almost no brakes...

DMC...  Replacement of the accumulator is a 5 minute job(lessee you vacuum guys convert one in five minutes :flip: ), there is a hex opening in the little  on top. All thats necessary to change it is a bit, extension, and ratchet... There are two types of accumulators, one has a flat mating surface and I believe used a sealing washer(what was on my TC). The one I used was off a '86 LSC and has a tapered(flared) sealing point. Per Ford they do not interchange, but I've had the LSC unit on mine for almost 10 years now with no problem... I don't think it would be possible to swap the opposite though and get a good seal...

BTW before changing(removing) it, thoroughly clean around the opening in the top of the master cylinder assembly... Use some cleaner and a strong stream of water to wash it off(let it dry completely and check closely for any remaining dirt), the last thing you want is a big gob of  falling inside the MC when you remove the accumulator...
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 20, 2007, 05:32:52 PM
Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU! Your response was to the point, concise, and highly informative, and best of all, no criticism of me!

If I may ask, do know of which vehicles I can pull an accumulator off of to use for my car? I understand the Mark VII had them, but are there any other cars you know of, ones which might be more common in a junk yard, I can pull one off of? Also, whilst at the junkyard, if I am fortunate to locate one, would it be necessary to pump the brakes on that car before attempting to remove it?

Thanks again for the response. It was very helpful!
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 20, 2007, 06:12:42 PM
So no love for the part #'s and prices. I see how it is. (Might want to re-read your posts, not once did I call you a name or tell you to convert your brakes, and you exploded on me on every post)

The accumulator is all in that 8/87 build date. So if your TC was built after that time, then the SC ones, etc will work. If it was before that, look for pre-88 LSC ones. They are ALL the same P/N though (2 p/n's) so you might as well just buy the new one and get it over with.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 20, 2007, 06:15:53 PM
Not once Did I mention your name now did I?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 20, 2007, 06:52:02 PM
OK ;) :hick:
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 20, 2007, 08:13:43 PM
Michael's date info stating 8/87 as the change likely applies to both the Tbird & LSC.  Probably the '88-up units are different from the '87-earlier accumulators(8-'87 would be considered the start of the new['88] model year). The differences would defiantly apply to my swap, as I pirated mine from a '86 and my '88 TC was built June '88...

BTW I see you are trying to get a new one, but if that doesn't work out here's a FYI... Watch out on taking one from a '88 LSC... The '88 LSCs were introduced early, around Feb/March '87... Not sure the actual differences in '87-'88 LSCs but that is also the point the LSC went to the 225HP HO vs the '86 style 200HP HO used in the '87s.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 20, 2007, 10:02:59 PM
Hmmmm...my car was manufactured in 4/87...so does this mean I can only use the Accumulators off of 87 Turbos or Pre-88 Mark VII's? The Mn-12 Thunderbird's are not an option?

Speaking of new...yes, I was looking for them. I found a dealership in Michigan that sells them for $200...you know of any other places I could get one?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: P71 on April 20, 2007, 10:05:10 PM
Look a couple of posts earlier, I pointed out the only place I could find.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 20, 2007, 10:36:16 PM
Yeah, I was hoping TurboCoupe50 might know of some place I could get one...cheaper than $200 anyway.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on April 20, 2007, 10:44:37 PM
Quote from: DMC24guy;141661
Hmmmm...my car was manufactured in 4/87...so does this mean I can only use the Accumulators off of 87 Turbos or Pre-88 Mark VII's? The Mn-12 Thunderbird's are not an option?


Yup you got it... Well a before 8-'87 '88 LSC should work, I doubt there were any '88 TCs built before that date...

Quote from: DMC24guy;141661

Speaking of new...yes, I was looking for them. I found a dealership in Michigan that sells them for $200...you know of any other places I could get one?


You try Greene Sales??(or something like that), they specialize in obsolete Ford parts...
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on April 20, 2007, 10:53:33 PM
Anyone have a part# for the Accumulator?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on May 04, 2007, 06:15:58 PM
Ok guys, I need a little more help before I undertake this adventure. I received an Accumulator from someone over at NATO. They purchased it from some Brake place in Texas called "Prior".

However, it appears different from the stock accumulator and has no Hex opening at the top, meaning I have no idea how I'm going to tighten it, if it even fits.

(http://natomessageboard.com/uploads/00003001/000_3344.jpg)

(http://natomessageboard.com/uploads/00003001/000_3345.jpg)
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 04, 2007, 08:23:44 PM
Apparently it is to be tightened by the nut just above the threads...

Is there a opening at all in the top? You pix is a bit blurry(got a macro setting on that camera??).. Almost looks like it would take a Torx bit...
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on May 04, 2007, 08:36:41 PM
No Macro, No opening....However......

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/brakes2.jpg)

PLUS...

(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/brakes1.jpg)
NO LIGHTS+WORKING ANTI-LOCKS=HAPPY DMC24guy.

It worked! Something I actually did worked! The brakes work fine. The Anti-Locks work now, the lights don't come on, and I was actually able to get the thing to fit in there with my hands. No leaks detected thus far. Best part, new selling point!
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on May 04, 2007, 08:58:56 PM
(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)

Maybe you could get a small oil filter wrench on it????
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on May 04, 2007, 09:13:40 PM
Tried it, but wasn't enough room to turn the thing. I got a good grip on it with my hands, and tightened as hard as I could, and as far as I could see, there weren't any leaks. But hey, there weren't any explosions or jet sprays of Brake Fluid, so everything is good.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: Ifixyawata on May 04, 2007, 09:26:24 PM
I take back my earlier comments about doing things the 'easy way'.  Couldn't have been much easier than the way you did it.

So you are still getting rid of this one though?
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DMC24guy on May 04, 2007, 09:35:27 PM
Yes, If I can. If I can find a good sport or xr-7, I'll do it.
Title: FIXED! The Braking problem is no more!!!
Post by: DakotaEpic on May 10, 2007, 03:27:39 PM
Glad to hear you got that fixed.  Sorry if I came off with a you can't do it attitude.  But why are you selling this one?  You are just starting to get it pieced together again and in pretty decent shape.  I've been checking craigslist a lot, and 87-88 birds are scarce in good condition.