Ok guys, I need some help. I finally located the problem with my ABS system today. After disabling my electric fans from turning on with the key in the "on" position, I was able to run a test which I normally couldn't do because I wasn't able to hear anything.
I pumped my brakes 20 or so times, turned the key to "ON", and sure enough, the pump motor only ran for a few seconds before shutting off. Same thing when I pushed down on the pedal. Only ran for a couple of seconds and shut off. The FAQ I was reading from NATO proceeded to inform me that my ABS Accumulator was bad.
My question is, 1) Where can I get one, and 2) Has anyone removed the accumulator before?
I've looked on Motorcraft's website, and can't locate the device. I've been told Ford still sells them for about $140, but again, the website yields nothing.
As for replacing it....The job looks nightmarish. All those vacuum lines, electrical wire looms, and the Wiper Motor are in the way. Does anyone have any suggestions?
(For what it's worth, if I were to continue driving around with a Bad Accumulator, would it eventually cause my Power Brakes to fail? Or would it just affect the ABS?)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/nightmare.jpg)
1. The accumulator is supposed to shut off
2. The accumulator has a 75% fail rate when dissassembled from the m/c, that's why NAPA and the like only sell the whole unit together, and why it's $1400.
Are you having any problems with the brakes?
Your brakes wont fail but you better have a strong leg. When my ABS system stopped working I had manual brakes. I ended up wiring a fog light relay to the hyd motor through the BOO switch so the motor would activate whenever I hit the brakes or I could turn it on and off when I wanted to. It was a good "temporary fix" because at least I had power brakes again. The reason you want to be able to turn it off is because the motor makes some funny noises if you leave it running too long (such as sitting in rush hour traffic). Kind of a PITA but at least its a cheap 'stop gap' measure until you can afford to pony up $1400 bux.
I'll see if I can dig up the info on which wires need to be spliced into... I actually wrote it all down because it took a while to figure out the wiring diagram and learn what did what.
Remembering this makes me realize how much I love having simple vacuum boosted brakes!
First to Mr.Aerobird:
The problem I'm having with my system is almost exactly what is described in problem #7 on this Troubleshooting (http://"http://www.turbotbird.com/techinfo/TEVES%20II%20ELECTRO-HYDRAULIC%20BRAKING%20SYSTEM%2087-88%20TCs.htm") Page.
Therefore, I am changing the Accumulator.
I am not having any problems with braking. I am having a continuous problems with the warning lights coming on however.
AND FINALLY, the accumulator I have on my car is ALREADY bad. ALREADY BAD. Taking it off doesn't worry me one bit. Obviously if I purchase a NEW ONE one from Ford, it will not be bad (Seeing as its...oh...NEW), and I will only be putting it on, and not putting it on, pressurizing the system, and then taking it off again. So saying:
"2. The accumulator has a 75% fail rate when dissassembled from the m/c, that's why NAPA and the like only sell the whole unit together, and why it's $1400."
really doesn't bother me much.
As for having to buy the whole unit, again, The Accumulator can be purchased from Ford as a single part, and evidently elsewhere as several members of NATO have informed me of this as well.
So, has anyone done this job before?
OK, so you have both warning lights come on when you brake hard? With no decrease in braking power? And you followed Jeff's solution to a T? The accumulator comes on with every pump? Just want to make sure the accumulator is the actual problem before throwing $$$ at it.
Also, it's not the accumulator that breaks, it's the master cylinder itself. I didn't make that very clear, but the m/c itself has a 75% fail rate with a new accumulator, which is why nobody sells them seperately. There's a TSB or DSB somewhere from when Ford found this out.
NAPA Part #'s:
Reman ABS compi - # UP 560050, $374.00 plus $100.00 core charge
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator - # UP 540105, $1,769.00 plus $100 core charge
Rock Auto Part #'s:
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator (Raybestos)- # ABS540105, $1,363.79 plus $100.00 core charge
Reman ABS m/c with accumulator (A1 Cardone)- # 123420, $1,187.99 plus $100.00 core charge
It's not a good sign when the ABS unit costs more than the car did.....
Look, rather than applying for another part time job so I can afford this device, I'm going to take my chances with a new accumulator. If anything goes wrong, I'm not going to blame anyone here, it'll be all on me. I understand what you're saying, and I'm going to risk it. If everything fails, I'll switch to power brakes....or my car will have been totaled.
I just wanted to know if anyone here has done what I'm about to attempt?
That's what I'm trying to tell you, NOBODY sells just the accumulator. Not Ford, not NAPA, not ANYBODY. You can *try* to find a used one, which may or may not work. I still say you need to find out the real issue.
The accumulator is the issue. I did all the tests in the world today. I followed that FAQ word to word. It's the Accumulator.
Now, about finding one. Why would my Ford dealer tell me they carry it? Are they lying to me?
Ford has NOT sold the accumulator by itself since 1988. NOBODY sells it without the m/c, NOBODY. If you don't feel like dropping $1300-$1800 on one, get a used one or swap to non-ABS.
Ford carries the accumulator with the m/c, it's $1,556.18, unknown # left in stock (that usually means a few dealers had one, but they haven't inventoried in 5 years).
Correction, they have not sold it since 7/87. $290.32 according to the Motorcraft book. Dealer network search shows 3 in the entire US. Good luck, I hope your m/c is one of the 25%.
This is a very, very long shot.
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getLocator&siteid=214290&chapter=DN2FD0&appSectionid=18&groupid=10002&subgroupid=60015&make=10&model=Thunderbird&year=1988&catalogid=1
Accumulator, to 7/87 87-88 List - $290.32 Price - $205.20
Accumulator, from 7/87 88-91 List - $244.55 Price - $172.85
I have NO idea who these guys are, whether the parts are in stock, or if their Nigerian or not. Your $$$ if you want to risk it. It's the ONLY company I can find with them...
Varsity Ford in Michigan has them. Under the website, "Newfordparts.com" It's in the United states. That's where I'm getting it from.
You could always sell it and buy another TC :flame:
Jeese. Just do the same conversion RedLX did. Pretty sure he said that it was cheap, and he loves it.
Dude... DMC doesn't like to do stuff the easy way.
I say go with vacuum assisted brake setup. I priced it out and it was gonna be about $130 for everything.
Shoulda never got rid of the other car.......You knew what was wrong with THAT one. What'll go next on this?
Seriously, why would you pay that much for brakes for a TC? Find some junk yards if you just want to throw money at the "problem". Paying more for brakes than the car is a bad choice IMO.
Yeah dude, just convert to vacuum assisted brakes. It's no harder than trying to fix something on the ABS master cylinder, except that vac assisted brakes don't have any stupid electronic gizmos to go out.
If you have a junkyard near you, grab a booster from a fox mustang, go to the parts store and get a new '86 SVO (1 1/4" bore) or '85 Lincoln Town Car (1" bore) master cylinder, both under $40 new including the core charge, and get the brake line and fittings you need. If you don't come in under $100 I'd be surprised. I have a writeup on how to do it both here, and on turboford in the FAQ's.
shiznit. he is NEVER gonna stop takin' flak for this is he? :rollin:
poor guy:( i know ive made my share of less-than-optimal decisions, nuttin worse than the regret afterwards. all i can do is wish i had better judgement. "young and stupid"....
Soon as 5-lug happens or the ABS takes a dump I'm ripping EVERYTHING out of my car. No more 2-year only TC-specific brakes for me, I USE them too much! :hick:
Stick a hole in the floor where big work boots!
convert to vacuum brakes already... its not that hard and it will be cheaper than your accumulator. this is what I did and I love them..
I shoulda checked out this thread sooner...
You guys are babbling about shoulda done this, change the thing to vac booster, etc. BULL shiznit!!!. DMC apparently HAS done his home work and 99.9% likely has a bad accumulator. The one was bad on my white TC when I bought it back in '97.. Had the same symptoms with pump short cycling and BOTH the ABS and Brake lights coming on under heavy braking... If you don't change it, nothing else is going to fail. Biggest issue is no reserve so if the electrical(ign switch) is off you have almost no brakes...
DMC... Replacement of the accumulator is a 5 minute job(lessee you vacuum guys convert one in five minutes :flip: ), there is a hex opening in the little on top. All thats necessary to change it is a bit, extension, and ratchet... There are two types of accumulators, one has a flat mating surface and I believe used a sealing washer(what was on my TC). The one I used was off a '86 LSC and has a tapered(flared) sealing point. Per Ford they do not interchange, but I've had the LSC unit on mine for almost 10 years now with no problem... I don't think it would be possible to swap the opposite though and get a good seal...
BTW before changing(removing) it, thoroughly clean around the opening in the top of the master cylinder assembly... Use some cleaner and a strong stream of water to wash it off(let it dry completely and check closely for any remaining dirt), the last thing you want is a big gob of falling inside the MC when you remove the accumulator...
Thankyou, thankyou, THANKYOU! Your response was to the point, concise, and highly informative, and best of all, no criticism of me!
If I may ask, do know of which vehicles I can pull an accumulator off of to use for my car? I understand the Mark VII had them, but are there any other cars you know of, ones which might be more common in a junk yard, I can pull one off of? Also, whilst at the junkyard, if I am fortunate to locate one, would it be necessary to pump the brakes on that car before attempting to remove it?
Thanks again for the response. It was very helpful!
So no love for the part #'s and prices. I see how it is. (Might want to re-read your posts, not once did I call you a name or tell you to convert your brakes, and you exploded on me on every post)
The accumulator is all in that 8/87 build date. So if your TC was built after that time, then the SC ones, etc will work. If it was before that, look for pre-88 LSC ones. They are ALL the same P/N though (2 p/n's) so you might as well just buy the new one and get it over with.
Not once Did I mention your name now did I?
OK ;) :hick:
Michael's date info stating 8/87 as the change likely applies to both the Tbird & LSC. Probably the '88-up units are different from the '87-earlier accumulators(8-'87 would be considered the start of the new['88] model year). The differences would defiantly apply to my swap, as I pirated mine from a '86 and my '88 TC was built June '88...
BTW I see you are trying to get a new one, but if that doesn't work out here's a FYI... Watch out on taking one from a '88 LSC... The '88 LSCs were introduced early, around Feb/March '87... Not sure the actual differences in '87-'88 LSCs but that is also the point the LSC went to the 225HP HO vs the '86 style 200HP HO used in the '87s.
Hmmmm...my car was manufactured in 4/87...so does this mean I can only use the Accumulators off of 87 Turbos or Pre-88 Mark VII's? The Mn-12 Thunderbird's are not an option?
Speaking of new...yes, I was looking for them. I found a dealership in Michigan that sells them for $200...you know of any other places I could get one?
Look a couple of posts earlier, I pointed out the only place I could find.
Yeah, I was hoping TurboCoupe50 might know of some place I could get one...cheaper than $200 anyway.
Yup you got it... Well a before 8-'87 '88 LSC should work, I doubt there were any '88 TCs built before that date...
You try Greene Sales??(or something like that), they specialize in obsolete Ford parts...
Anyone have a part# for the Accumulator?
Ok guys, I need a little more help before I undertake this adventure. I received an Accumulator from someone over at NATO. They purchased it from some Brake place in Texas called "Prior".
However, it appears different from the stock accumulator and has no Hex opening at the top, meaning I have no idea how I'm going to tighten it, if it even fits.
(http://natomessageboard.com/uploads/00003001/000_3344.jpg)
(http://natomessageboard.com/uploads/00003001/000_3345.jpg)
Apparently it is to be tightened by the nut just above the threads...
Is there a opening at all in the top? You pix is a bit blurry(got a macro setting on that camera??).. Almost looks like it would take a Torx bit...
No Macro, No opening....However......
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/brakes2.jpg)
PLUS...
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/DMC24guy/brakes1.jpg)
NO LIGHTS+WORKING ANTI-LOCKS=HAPPY DMC24guy.
It worked! Something I actually did worked! The brakes work fine. The Anti-Locks work now, the lights don't come on, and I was actually able to get the thing to fit in there with my hands. No leaks detected thus far. Best part, new selling point!
(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)(http://members.pen 15s.net/mr428/thumbup.gif)
Maybe you could get a small oil filter wrench on it????
Tried it, but wasn't enough room to turn the thing. I got a good grip on it with my hands, and tightened as hard as I could, and as far as I could see, there weren't any leaks. But hey, there weren't any explosions or jet sprays of Brake Fluid, so everything is good.
I take back my earlier comments about doing things the 'easy way'. Couldn't have been much easier than the way you did it.
So you are still getting rid of this one though?
Yes, If I can. If I can find a good sport or xr-7, I'll do it.
Glad to hear you got that fixed. Sorry if I came off with a you can't do it attitude. But why are you selling this one? You are just starting to get it pieced together again and in pretty decent shape. I've been checking craigslist a lot, and 87-88 birds are scarce in good condition.