Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Suspension/Steering => Topic started by: Ether947 on March 13, 2007, 09:21:01 PM

Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Ether947 on March 13, 2007, 09:21:01 PM
I emailed MM about my suspension problems here is their repsonse

Quote
It is a very common misconception, that when you  lower your vehicle you will acquire a bumpsteer problem. This is completely  FALSE!

First a quick explanation of what bumpsteer is. Bumpsteer is a  curve or graph made from taking several measurements of toe change (wheel  pointing in or out from center) as the wheel moves up and down through its  suspension travel. We always want this change to be as minimal as possible (zero  is best) to prevent the suspension from "steering" the car when it hits a bump  in the road. This adds stability and safety to the car and has been designed  into the front suspension from the factory.

Changing the ride height of  the car will place the suspension in a different part of the bumpsteer curve,  although it will not change the curve itself. While the bumpsteer at this  particular point in the suspension travel may not be quite as optimal as it was  at factory ride height, it is typically fine for street driven  vehicles.

Now as soon as you alter the relationship between where the  steering rack, control arms, and spindles are located, as with the 96-98  Spindles, you create a completely different bumpsteer curve. This is when you  need a bumpsteer adjustable tie rod end to re-tune the bumpsteer curve on the  car.

For your application, and due to the complicated, time consuming  process of bumpsteering a car, I highly recommend against installing these  spindles. They are a lot more hassle than they are worth. I would try and find a  set of 1994-95 spindles that have geometry closer the your original  ones.

(http://picasaweb.google.com/ether947/Misc/photo#5041583103125654114)(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/ether947/misc/spindles.jpg)

In regards to your comment about bumpsteer, I think what you are  experiencing might be tramlining. This is the tire's tendency to follow ruts or  grooves in the road. It is typically accentuated by performance wheels, tires  and suspension modifications. It can be helped by a good alignment but it is a  side effect of adding more grip to the car, and is something that most  performance modified vehicles experience to some extent.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Chuck W on March 13, 2007, 09:44:49 PM
That is one reason I only use the 94-95 spindles on my cars ;)

I've never had a bumpsteer issue with my cars, but the "tramlining" is an issue however.

On the 96-04 cars, the rack is 1" lower than previous years due to the mod motor...thus the lowered tie rod point. 

Fitting a bumpsteer kit and dialing it in can be tedious, and really those aren't meant for street use as they are just spherical rod ends. 

I'm not sure if a set of offset rack bushings installed so as to lower the rack (instead of raise it) would help, or even fit on the car.

The 94-95 spindle route is the best option, but I know they are harder to find.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: jlewis05 on March 14, 2007, 05:52:24 PM
That's interesting, it's the first I heard the 96+ spindles recommended against.  The thing is, the 96+ spindle is supposedly easier to mount brake ducts to, and better geometry somehow?  And they mount Cobra calipers with no grinding.  So when is it worth it?  I intend to modify my car for HPDE use and road racing, some autocross, so perhaps it would be justified for me?
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Chuck W on March 14, 2007, 06:20:36 PM
If you're building a street car, or one that see primarily street use, like I mentioned, the bump-steer kits really aren't a good idea.  The geometry might be better when used on the appropriate K-member, but on a Fox? Not so much.  The "grinding" required is not required for the Cobra brakes....as the 94-95s used the same ones.  It's when you use the 11" 99+ PBRs that you need to do the grinding.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Thunder Chicken on March 14, 2007, 11:16:19 PM
So if one were to, say, install a 96+ K-member in order to do a mod swap from, say, a Lincoln Mark VIII, one should use the 96+ spindles (and of course control arms) as well in order to maintain geometry?
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Chuck W on March 14, 2007, 11:35:35 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;134604
So if one were to, say, install a 96+ K-member in order to do a mod swap from, say, a Lincoln Mark VIII, one should use the 96+ spindles (and of course control arms) as well in order to maintain geometry?


Yuppers.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: bduly on March 15, 2007, 02:16:29 AM
"Tramlining" was a huge problem for me when I had spoogeho tires. The tires would catch a groove and literaly yank the wheel. It was cured instantly when I went to a different tire (riken raptor). I'd say tread pattern plays a huge role in "tramlining."
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: *MAYHEM* on March 15, 2007, 07:23:35 AM
Tire pressure can also effect tramlining. Often it's the edge of the tire catching craks and grooves that will cause issues. try adding a couple pounds of pressure.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: jlewis05 on March 15, 2007, 01:58:38 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;134555
If you're building a street car, or one that see primarily street use, like I mentioned, the bump-steer kits really aren't a good idea.  The geometry might be better when used on the appropriate K-member, but on a Fox? Not so much.  The "grinding" required is not required for the Cobra brakes....as the 94-95s used the same ones.  It's when you use the 11" 99+ PBRs that you need to do the grinding.


You're right, I have read that.  The Cobra calipers should bolt up.  So I guess the only advantage that leaves are (supposedly) making it easier to bolt up brake ducts, and maybe better (or just different) geometry and a wider track.  So I see what the best choice is here, but let's say worst case one ran the 96+ spindles, IF (big if) you could offset the rack down 1", you'd be close on the geometry? 

I don't know if there's any point to that, but just depends on how hard 94-95 spindles are to find.  I have some 20mm offset wheels and apparently the 96+ spindles may push them out too far anyway.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Chuck W on March 15, 2007, 03:52:08 PM
I'm not sure you can move the rack down 1".  You may start running into things (K-member), and the steering shaft might be too short. 
Dropping it, even if it's 1/2" would help though.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Ether947 on March 15, 2007, 04:27:20 PM
Remember you can also pull your wheels in with Fox Stang Arms if needed.

I think I am just going to run the 96-98 Spindles. I'm tired of digging for parts. Plus, I don't recall the bumpsteer being that bad on darkthunder or the mustang that they are on now. 
It think it was more tramlining than anything. Except on slow bumps... the steering wheel would turn out of my hand if I wasn't paying attention.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 15, 2007, 05:13:43 PM
Quote from: Chuck W;134712
I'm not sure you can move the rack down 1".  You may start running into things (K-member), and the steering shaft might be too short. 
Dropping it, even if it's 1/2" would help though.

You don't have to worry about the steering shaft. The column portion is collapsable/expandable. :punchballs:
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: gumby on March 15, 2007, 09:11:21 PM
id like to know how you can extend it. ive seen a few collapsable steering shafts, and my bird aint got one. the column portion may be collaspable, but that is for impact absorbtion and is on the interior side of the firewall. that wont help in this situation.

my kmember extended the wheelbase 1" and i am gonna be either extendin the stock shaft, or gettin an aftermarket unit.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 15, 2007, 09:43:41 PM
(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/forums/random 006_r.jpg)

See parts #45 and #47? You can move 47 in/out. At least I can on mine. It has gone in 3-4 inches. Maybe I broke something. :o
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: gumby on March 15, 2007, 10:05:45 PM
hrrrmmmm, ive pulled on the steering shaft(#50, bolted to 47) pretty hard and it hasnt budged. it should only collapse not extend AFAIK. maybe i need a bigger hammer.....
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: Chuck W on March 15, 2007, 10:11:50 PM
Yeah, I don't think it's meant to extend that much, if at all.  Collapse yes, but extend?  Not so much.

#45 will some out of #47 however....I've done it.

Lowring the rack up to 1" though is not going to lengthen the steering shaft 1".....
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 15, 2007, 10:15:17 PM
I don't think extending the wheelbase moves the P/S rack at all. That would screw up the ackerman.

Hey, if you're doing all this upgrading...you might as well buy a '03-'04 Cobra rack and MM shaft and call it a day (and another $600) ;)
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: jlewis05 on March 16, 2007, 11:09:24 AM
Heh, as a matter of fact I have an 03 Cobra rack, just arrived this week :).  Now to determine if it's really a Cobra rack or not, any ideas?  I'm sure there's a number on it, I just don't know what it's supposed to be.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 16, 2007, 12:25:29 PM
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25628&highlight=cobra+rack

See post #24 for the rack codes, but the entire post is chock full of good tech.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: jlewis05 on March 16, 2007, 01:58:31 PM
Sorry to veer off-topic, huge thanks for the link, it appears my 03 Cobra rack is not after all, it's a 99-01 "SJ" rack, I paid 85 shipped for it, I'm going to see what the seller says about it and hopefully work it out the nice way.  Any input appreciated, just PM me.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: gumby on March 16, 2007, 08:30:55 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;134797
I don't think extending the wheelbase moves the P/S rack at all. That would screw up the ackerman.

well i cant speak for all aftermarket kmembers, but mine moves the rack with the wheelbase. makes sense to me. push the control arm and spindle forward, move the rack to match.
03 cobra rack, or 00R rack would be nice. not currently in the budget, but maybe one day.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 16, 2007, 11:21:52 PM
I guess that makes sense from a cheap perspective, but from a performance perspective, moving the rack forward lessens ackerman (not necessarily the end of the world), and moves the engine up an inch (bad for CG).

MM adds 3/4" WB w/o moving the rack forward.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 16, 2007, 11:44:11 PM
That doesn't give you the best ackerman or engine CG (I assume the engine is moved forward too).
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: gumby on March 17, 2007, 09:48:07 AM
no, the engine is in stock location.

how exactly does moving the rack and spindle TOGETHER affect the ackerman effect, enlighten me? :hick:


[SIZE="1"]
please google "ackerman effect" and "toe out on turns" before responding[/SIZE]
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 17, 2007, 11:34:03 AM
Optimum Ackerman for our vehicles is with the rack moved back a bit. This is still valid when you add SN95 spindles.

I have designed and build suspensions from scratch. I know what Ackerman is.

It is mostly an intellectual point. It isn't going to noticeably affect performance on a road course. In our case (Baja SAE), maneuvering at or near the steering lock was quite important, so we added a ton of Ackerman.
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: gumby on March 17, 2007, 12:04:35 PM
ok fine, im glad you know what ackerman effect is. i still dont see your point that moving the rack with the wheelbase will "screw up the ackerman."
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: JeremyB on March 17, 2007, 12:16:49 PM
It won't, I don't have any clue why I wrote that.
I reserve the right to withdraw inane posts. :hick:

Where is ADAMS when I need it?
Title: Some info about bumpsteer
Post by: jlewis05 on March 17, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
I have a book on RC cars that explains Ackerman, I should dig it out...:hick: