General => User Rides => Topic started by: Ether947 on February 04, 2007, 08:11:28 PM
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Ether947 on February 04, 2007, 08:11:28 PM
Some of you may have known about the 351w powered TC I had planned on trading up my 87TC for. Well me and my fiance decided to buy a house and I had to cancel the trade. I was pretty bummed out about it as I truly had my heart set on that ride. It is clean and practically rust free. Whoever gets it is a lucky chap. But anyways, once the house is secured, I "plan" on purchasing another DD. I've got my eyes set on a 90ish Grand Prix.... but who knows. I do know it won't be another Fox. I just CANNOT control the urge to modify. I've tried... I can't. Sometimes I feel like I need treatment, lol. This brings us to my current 87TC. It is not rust-free by any means and one day it will be crushed. Which brings us to darkthunder. Eventually I will set up a savings account specifically to fund Project Darkthunder. But I am having a hard time deciding which direction to take DT. Suspension wise I've got that locked down (in my head at least). Basically a carbon-copy of dogcharmer's front end, and in the rear a MM 3-link setup.
My problem is with the engine. Currently there is a carb'd 302 in the engine bay that was installed when I purchased it. Ran great up until I lost #1 cylinder and was forced to park it. I am looking for about 350 to 400hp street/race/showcar. Strictly a fun car. I may drive it to work "maybe" once a year. Originally I wanted a 4.6 DOHC TT setup, but that is well out of my realistic budget and HP range. Then there was the 427 stroker idea, but again out of HP range and budget. So here is what I narrowed it down to.
darkthunder v2.3 2.3t with Aluminum Head T3/T4 Hybrid Tubular Header FMIC EEC Mods or Standalone Supporting Hardware
I am leaning heavily towards the 2.3t, but there's that part of me deep down inside that wants that beloved V8 exhaust note. But the 5.0 conversion will be more expensive as I already have a head start on the 2.3t stuff. And since this won't be my daily, I'm not all that concerned with low-end torque streetablity. Also I am looking to achieve 50-50 weight bias (or as close as possible) so the the 2.3t scores another point there. But the 5.0 is a whole lot simpler and is the "road more traveled" so to speak. Parts are readily available as the 5.0 aftermarket makes the 2.3 look like it doesn't exist. Being different is cool, but when something breaks... especially when it's custom, or sold by one or two vendors, it can be more of a burden. But since it's not my daily that really shouldn't be a problem, but something to consider.
Yes I know there's been a ton of threads out there with the very same topic and this is partially subjective. I'm just interested in hearing opinions.
And with all of that said, which would "you" choose?
Thanks.
Reference Material [Engine Weights (http://"http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html")] [2.3 Cylinder Head Weight (http://"http://www.turboford.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=005344#000004")] [Esslinger Info (http://"http://www.85xr.com/esslinger.htm")] [306 vs 347 Comparison (http://"http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/18601_engine_displacement_comparison_306_347/")]
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Clayton on February 04, 2007, 08:33:16 PM
I'd say roll with wutcha got.
stick to the 347 in DT.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: 84 Fila on February 04, 2007, 08:35:51 PM
347!
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: CougarSE on February 04, 2007, 08:47:22 PM
Antonio, being different is good and all but sometimes tried and true is the key to happiness. I would go with a fuel injected 302 block based engine. This is what I chose for my 88 TC, EFI 302. Whatever you do, put a 5 speed behind it!
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: xr7cat on February 04, 2007, 09:04:24 PM
i say stick with the v8, not much of 4 cyl fan.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: cougarman on February 04, 2007, 09:11:45 PM
how about a carburated 4.6 markVIII engine? theres lost of aftermarket stuff available to get that horse power cheap
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Ifixyawata on February 04, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
, no love for the 2.3T. Oh well.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: daboss351 on February 04, 2007, 10:23:48 PM
i love v8's but i love the fact that the 2.3t is so underestimated, for the power they can push, hence why i want to put one in a ranger, instead of a v8 swap
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: slamedcat on February 04, 2007, 10:31:56 PM
I like the carbed 4.6 idea. I spotted one in the local trading post that had the trans, harness, and ECM for $600.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: turbo83coupe on February 04, 2007, 10:47:56 PM
2.3 THAT BEAST! Be different! Heck, check out SLEEPERS currnt build, and that would be enough encouragement for me to build (if i had a bay that needed an engine). And, call me crazy, but I like the sound of a 2.3T better anyways (clearly an oppinion), v8's sound awsome as well. What edzactly do you mean by having a "headstart on the 2.3T stuff"? That could be a very could factore in your decision...
Frank M.
btw, that 85 is a sweet looking car!!
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: turbo83coupe on February 04, 2007, 10:50:42 PM
2.3 THAT BEAST! Be different! Heck, check out SLEEPERS currnt build, and that would be enough encouragement for me to build (if i had a bay that needed an engine). And, call me crazy, but I like the sound of a 2.3T better anyways (clearly an oppinion), v8's sound awsome as well. What edzactly do you mean by having a "headstart on the 2.3T stuff"? That could be a very good/big factore in your decision...
Frank M.
btw, that 85 is a sweet looking car!!
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: P71 on February 04, 2007, 10:50:53 PM
351 5-Speed or 2.3T. The 2.3 will be a LOT more tempermental though, ask me how I know. Stay away from a n/a 4.6 for all you're worth. And even if you have the $$$ for a boosted one, go for a blown 302/347 or 351/408 instead...
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: daboss351 on February 04, 2007, 10:50:54 PM
hes got another t/c thats rotted, i guess he'll steal its motor, and send it on its way.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: daboss351 on February 04, 2007, 10:52:25 PM
just how tempermental are the 2.3's to build?
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on February 04, 2007, 11:29:21 PM
2.3T
More gratification , more milage , just plain fun.
;)
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Red_LX on February 04, 2007, 11:45:35 PM
Quote from: daboss351;127640
just how tempermental are the 2.3's to build?
Depends on what you're doing with it, really...
People will bitch about them being temperamental, and these seem to be people running huge amounts of boost and/or lots of aftermarket parts. Comes with the territory.
Mine has been dead reliable since I built it. Granted I'm only running 17 psi into it, but I've had zero problems with the engine itself (I've had problems caused by my own goofups though).
That being said, the problem areas tend to be head gaskets, and distributor/intermediate shaft gears stripping or breaking. Although, I've never had that happen.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: P71 on February 04, 2007, 11:47:20 PM
At 400HP they're tempermental. At anything over 360ish they're tempermental. Just about any 4-Cyl will be.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: 87badbird2613 on February 05, 2007, 12:38:49 AM
Quote from: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87;127658
2.3T
More gratification , more milage , just plain fun.
;)
i agree 100 percent sometimes i love my turbocoupe so much i wanna forget about my v8!:iagree:
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: cougrrr302 on February 05, 2007, 12:48:16 AM
Build one engine then the other. You never know, you might end up with a car the 347 could go into. Darkthunder Part II.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Dogcharmer on February 05, 2007, 08:47:46 AM
I prefer the V8 engine to the I4 and personally I would go the V8 route. But with your goals it seems like the turbo 4 might work out better although I dont think it will be much more cost effective than the V8 option... That Esslinger aluminum head aint cheap and neither is the cam.
Also, you forgot to mention tuning hardware for the 347. For that you'll need a TwEECer RT or PMS and wide band... unless you plan on running a carb. Then the 347 would be cheaper than the turbo 4. BTW, the TwEECer is supposed to work with the 4 cyl EEC-IV.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: MasterBlaster on February 05, 2007, 09:30:37 AM
How about a nice GM 350? :flame:
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Red_LX on February 05, 2007, 09:42:19 AM
Quote from: Dogcharmer;127694
BTW, the TwEECer is supposed to work with the 4 cyl EEC-IV.
It does, a bunch of people over Turboford use it.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: P71 on February 05, 2007, 09:52:58 AM
Stay AWAY from Powerheads. They do really shoddy work. Check out TF, they burned quite a few people over there recently. If you really want a good head, call up Bo at Boport.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Dogcharmer on February 05, 2007, 12:01:41 PM
Thanks for the heads up on Powerheads... I'm gonna edit that out of my previous post.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: 46Tbird on February 05, 2007, 12:17:33 PM
If you're starting from scratch, build a 393.
It's 351W based but uses standard 302 pistons and rods. EL CHEAPO. Plus that's nearly 50 more cubes than even a 347... for no more cost, probably less actually since you're using budget parts. The 351W intakes and headers may be slightly, but not much, more..
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Ether947 on February 05, 2007, 12:23:36 PM
Quote from: turbo83coupe;127636
2.3 THAT BEAST! Be different! Heck, check out SLEEPERS currnt build, and that would be enough encouragement for me to build (if i had a bay that needed an engine). And, call me crazy, but I like the sound of a 2.3T better anyways (clearly an oppinion), v8's sound awsome as well. What edzactly do you mean by having a "headstart on the 2.3T stuff"? That could be a very good/big factore in your decision...
Frank M.
btw, that 85 is a sweet looking car!!
Thanks. The engine will come from my 87TC should I go that route. Right now it is pretty much stock, minus the RR cam and the exhaust. But the cam really won't matter anyways. It's kinda ironic to think that I would be different to swap the 2.3t in when that was the original engine. :D
Quote from: cougarman;127612
how about a carburated 4.6 markVIII engine? theres lost of aftermarket stuff available to get that horse power cheap
I briefly thought about that a while back... I never really researched about how much it would take to get it in the 400hp range though. It would be the best of both worlds... minus the weight. I'll look into it.
Quote from: CougarSE;127603
Antonio, being different is good and all but sometimes tried and true is the key to happiness. I would go with a fuel injected 302 block based engine. This is what I chose for my 88 TC, EFI 302. Whatever you do, put a 5 speed behind it!
Oh yes, there will be 5-speed.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: turbo83coupe on February 05, 2007, 01:45:40 PM
I should have made myself more clear. I ment that if most people were in your shoes, they would swap in some sort of V8 and not a 2.3T... Did you ever consider working the stock iron head over?
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Chuck W on February 05, 2007, 01:55:50 PM
Just a note on the 2.3T vs 302 weight. You add AL heads to a 302.....they weight difference isn't all that much. Not that I'm advocating a 302....but I do have to admit that the weight difference isn't as much as some folks think.
As far as weight balance, my '83 is about 53/47....
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Ether947 on February 05, 2007, 06:26:40 PM
Quote from: turbo83coupe;127738
I should have made myself more clear. I ment that if most people were in your shoes, they would swap in some sort of V8 and not a 2.3T... Did you ever consider working the stock iron head over?
I completely understood what you said. I was just stating the irony of it.
Quote from: Chuck W;127739
Just a note on the 2.3T vs 302 weight. You add AL heads to a 302.....they weight difference isn't all that much. Not that I'm advocating a 302....but I do have to admit that the weight difference isn't as much as some folks think.
As far as weight balance, my '83 is about 53/47....
Do you know what the 2.3t weighs? Does this site (http://"http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html")'s numbers sound about right to you?
Also how much of your original interior is intact? I am pretty much going to gut mine out and reinstall it. Minus the rear seats and a pair of Recardos (or the like) in the front.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: daboss351 on February 05, 2007, 08:04:34 PM
MY 351w WEIGHS HOW MUCH!! 525 POUNDS HOLY shiznit. i thought around 400
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Chuck W on February 05, 2007, 08:10:38 PM
Quote from: Ether947;127786
Do you know what the 2.3t weighs? Does this site (http://"http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html")'s numbers sound about right to you?
Also how much of your original interior is intact? I am pretty much going to gut mine out and reinstall it. Minus the rear seats and a pair of Recardos (or the like) in the front.
Yup, sounds about right. THey could give some better info on how the engines are dressed, but the 2.3 is pretty heavy for what it is.
My interior is complete minus the rear seat and the power seat tracks....the 80+# of cage though pretty much offsets that....and then some.
Oh...and it's Recaros ;)
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Kitz Kat on February 05, 2007, 08:12:42 PM
A little more weight a little more,Hp ? trade HP for wheight anyday.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: DakotaEpic on February 05, 2007, 09:42:32 PM
New Ford BOSS 302 Block 331 stroker kit. AFR 205's Holley Systemax II Comp cams XE-R grind of your chouce And obviously the supporting mods.
You'll be running 400+ to the wheels easy. More with a meaner cam.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: 1BDBIRD on February 05, 2007, 10:17:52 PM
I'd say go with the 2.3 turbo. Guys are geting 300-400hp out of them easily with big turbo(holset) and a megasquirt fuel management My 2.3t mustang was all stock conversion an ran 14.90's on all motor with 230,000 miles and 10psi of boost,and a shiznit clutch. I turned it up to 18psi and it slipped the clutch before any mor e acceleration,I'm sure it would have went low 14's with a good clutch and timing and some race fuel. So now my t-bird dont seem so fast!!
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Tbird232ci on February 06, 2007, 08:39:37 AM
I can give opinions on both directions really.
Going 2.3L would be the more fun route in my opinion. Ive had so many people look under my hood and their eyes bug out. Ive raced quite a few respectable cars, and most of them had a hard time believing that it was a 4 cylinder car. Theres nothing like the turbo experience either. That rush of power when the boost pegs 20psi, and the car struggles for traction, the sound of that thing spooling up, and the pure "technical" vibe you get from having a turbo car.
Going 5.0 would alieviate one thing i miss when driving the 2.3L. Torque. When im corner carving, I have to be on the throttle a good bit before the apex, so as im hitting the apex, boost will peg and i come out of the corner hard. With a V8, its more of a "point and shoot" deal. Apex, throttle, gone. Also like most have said, the aftermarket is plentiful. Ive been frequenting mustang forums, and people sell performance parts left and right for the 5.0's. The driving experience with a V8 is a blast when you can mash the throttle and instantly go, no wait for boost, no fancing clutch kicks or riding the clutch.
Thats why im building one of each. Maybe you could pull off putting the 2.3 in Dark Thunder. Then nabbing some mounts, a T5, and throw a 5.0 in the TC. Even though its rotting, itll be fun, and if you find another shell, its easy to do the 5.0 swap in another car. Make Dark Thunder your play car, and set up another car as a driver.
Title: Resurrecting Darkthunder
Post by: Ether947 on February 07, 2007, 08:23:33 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;127882
I can give opinions on both directions really.
Going 2.3L would be the more fun route in my opinion. Ive had so many people look under my hood and their eyes bug out. Ive raced quite a few respectable cars, and most of them had a hard time believing that it was a 4 cylinder car. Theres nothing like the turbo experience either. That rush of power when the boost pegs 20psi, and the car struggles for traction, the sound of that thing spooling up, and the pure "technical" vibe you get from having a turbo car.
Going 5.0 would alieviate one thing i miss when driving the 2.3L. Torque. When im corner carving, I have to be on the throttle a good bit before the apex, so as im hitting the apex, boost will peg and i come out of the corner hard. With a V8, its more of a "point and shoot" deal. Apex, throttle, gone. Also like most have said, the aftermarket is plentiful. Ive been frequenting mustang forums, and people sell performance parts left and right for the 5.0's. The driving experience with a V8 is a blast when you can mash the throttle and instantly go, no wait for boost, no fancing clutch kicks or riding the clutch.
Thats why im building one of each. Maybe you could pull off putting the 2.3 in Dark Thunder. Then nabbing some mounts, a T5, and throw a 5.0 in the TC. Even though its rotting, itll be fun, and if you find another shell, its easy to do the 5.0 swap in another car. Make Dark Thunder your play car, and set up another car as a driver.
That's an excellent comparison. And I have to say it helped me make up my mind. Thanks.