General => Lounge => Topic started by: 1BDBIRD on January 21, 2007, 11:24:02 AM
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: 1BDBIRD on January 21, 2007, 11:24:02 AM
I just wondering if anyone else has noticed this new FAD. I think it is a pretty sweet idea. Just put a cobra crank in a lincoln 4.6 4v modify the heads,cam,valvesprings,a sweet intake. Then wire it up for the FI system and throw some NOS at it and your at 600rwh before you know it. I think i'm getting the itch. What ya'll think. I should put one in our 66 Ranch Wagon,I bet I would be the first. :evilgrin:
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: SLEEPER T-BIRD 87 on January 21, 2007, 11:36:21 AM
I personally dont care for the mod motors.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: 1BDBIRD on January 21, 2007, 11:43:51 AM
Thats what I thought at first,but they are really growing on me. I've had the itch to go buy a 99-04 Mustang Gt lately. The car payment would suck though. I'll probably get another 2.3turbo car though. I cant getover how sweet you bird looks with the stang wheels,and the semi-gloss.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 21, 2007, 01:30:42 PM
The 4.6 DOHC is sweet, but too frickin' wide!
However, I'd love to have a Cobra or Mach 1 with one in it.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 21, 2007, 09:01:39 PM
The 4.6 is a joke. There's still no aftermarket support for them, and the 2v's are dogs. Hell, they're ALL dogs unless they're boosted. I see more and more 302/351 swaps into the 94-04's every day. No wonder Ford is finally working on a pushrod motor. 400HP n/a LS2's, 505HP n/a LS7's, 345HP 5.7 Hemi's, 425HP 6.1L Hemi's. Even the 5.4 hasn't a chance without the blower.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: V8Demon on January 21, 2007, 09:44:00 PM
Quote
No wonder Ford is finally working on a pushrod motor
Got any links? I'd like to learn more on that.....
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: shame302 on January 21, 2007, 10:39:39 PM
Quote from: 1BDBIRD;124903
I just wondering if anyone else has noticed this new FAD. I think it is a pretty sweet idea. Just put a cobra crank in a lincoln 4.6 4v modify the heads,cam,valvesprings,a sweet intake. Then wire it up for the FI system and throw some NOS at it and your at 600rwh before you know it. I think i'm getting the itch. What ya'll think. I should put one in our 66 Ranch Wagon,I bet I would be the first. :evilgrin:
i personally love them.
depending on the power level you wouldnt realy need to swap in the cobra crank as the rods and pistons are the real weak point in the NA modulars anyhow. 8-9 psi and a tune down to 400-450 rwhp seems to be the average limmit considered safe with the NA 4 valves running boost. now, your talking a good 500 hp there. thats some pretty serious stuff. forged bottom end and the sky is the limmit.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: xjeffs on January 21, 2007, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart;124994
Got any links? I'd like to learn more on that.....
Yeah links? That's a new one on me.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: shame302 on January 21, 2007, 10:57:07 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;124985
The 4.6 is a joke. There's still no aftermarket support for them, and the 2v's are dogs. Hell, they're ALL dogs unless they're boosted. I see more and more 302/351 swaps into the 94-04's every day. No wonder Ford is finally working on a pushrod motor. 400HP n/a LS2's, 505HP n/a LS7's, 345HP 5.7 Hemi's, 425HP 6.1L Hemi's. Even the 5.4 hasn't a chance without the blower.
again, to each his own. we all know you done like the modulars. the 4.6 is a joke? the 2 valves are slower cause they are in a pig of a car. my mustang weighs about the same as my tbird did. yank the 5.0 out of a cute little notch and drop that dog of a 2 valve (were talking 99 up as the 96-98s realy were a joke, same power leval as the 5.0 though) into it and id bet anything the car would be faster. yep thats why ford dropped the 5.0. cube for cube the mods make way more power. im not doging the 5.0. the windsor engines are great engines. for me, they have run their course and i have no interest in them anymore. as far s aftermarket support, thats somewhat true but imo doesnt matter much because there are plenty of things to do to them. they are very responsive to mods. now, at any one point i always planned on a boosted engine and id rather have a boosted 4.6 dohc than a windsor anything anyday. it just suits me better. they make bigger, smoother higher reving power.
imo, a turbo coupe with a blown 4valve swapped in is more exotic and more apealing than a 302 with a blower...
if thats what you want, then swap one in. i dont realy consider those as they are not ford products and i personally would never swap any one of them in a ford. it just doesnt do it for me. the hemis are alright. sure they make good power but they are pigs on gas. my bud had a nice and light, stripped regular cab 1500 pick up with the hemi and the best he could do was 13mpg...yay. my little 4 valve with 320 hp and 281 cubes averages a good 23-25 and on long trips i can get her up to a best of 31.3 mpg. you arent looking at the whole picture man. those mod motors, even though arent at the same power leval are still on par. as far as arguing a 5.0 being better at that power leval, well you see blocks split at that power leval all the time.
take that gto in your sig for example, you know the one that aint yours....my car puts down the same numbers but makes less power. its all in how ya look at it...and what tickles your nuts just the right way.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Dogcharmer on January 21, 2007, 11:59:41 PM
4.6 16 valve SOHC was a cool idea but cost way too much to modify and is a gigantic engine. Somehow ford managed to package 281 cubes in an engine the size of a 460. Even though PI heads helped the 99 and up they still only flow around pushrod GT40 numbers. If I was to consider the time, effort and expence of a modular swap my only option would be a 4.6 32 valve DOHC or one of the 05 and up 24 valve SOHC engines. Ford got it right with both of those.
I could never afford to play with either one so I'll stick with pushrod motors.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 10:20:21 AM
Hot Rod and MM&FF have both reported on the new Ford pushrod V8. It really makes sense for them. I wasn't trying to say people should drop LSx's and Hemi's into Fords, just pointing out what GM and DC are up to and why Ford is soooooo far behind. John's 05 GTO is 400HP/400FtLbs bone stock, goes 13.3's@108, gets 28 mpg, and is far nicer then the new Mustangs, for $29K. Guys have gone as quick as 12.70's on DR's all-stock (down to the paper air filter and spare in the trunk). Sure the new GT500 makes 500HP, but it needed to be a 5.4 and have a blower to do it. The 427ci LS7 does it n/a (or 632HP with the GM Hot-Cam). 100% stock LS2's with Magnachargers routinely put down 500HP to the WHEELS at 8 psi. Ford needs to step beyond the 4.6. They made a little progress with the 3V but it's still a doggy-dog. Put the 3v heads on a 5.4 and stick that in the Stang, there's a solution. And until the aftermarket really starts to care (new heads, new blocks, etc, etc) they'll still be low-po. Heck, the 5.3L LS4 front-drivers are computer-limited to 303HP! They're already reporting 40+HP to the wheels with a tune. They just don't have enough ci to make big #'s without forced induction (just like TC 2.3's). Not to mention the size and weight...
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: shame302 on January 22, 2007, 11:24:43 AM
i dont even realy want to get into any other manufacturers line. apples to oranges. you attacked the 4.6 like its a pos and they just arent. they are still there hp per cube. truthefully, fords always been behind in terms of power. they always outsold gm by a landslide they just didnt realy need it. i realy like what dodge has done. id love a srt8charger. the gto doesnt do it for me at all. the zo6 is the best american sports car ever made. the new mustang doesnt do it for me either and you will never see me driving one. even if ford is working on a pushrod line up its for the aftermarket. likely you will never see a pushrod in a production engine again. certainly not a mustang. pushrods arent the problem anyway, displacement is. the 4 valve makes little power down low cause it hase huge heads and a cam desighned for a much bigger engine. thats why they dont realy pull till they start moving some air and why they are so responsive to boost. the fr500 heads are awesome heads as well as the cams. although pricey, they make a huge differance. all of the aluminum blocks are much stronger than the later 5.0 production blocks. the teksids are likely the strongest blocks ford ever used. the iron 03-04 blocks are tough as well. no need to upgrade those. ford probably should have started with a blower setup in 99. these engines are suited for and are animals with boost. if its BIG NA power your after than yeah, likely a 4.6 aint gonna do it for ya. a 5.4 dohc with the aussi boss 290 intake will net around 400 rwhp. that should be enough to keep a smile on most peoples face. a buddy of mine is currently working on a swap kit to drop the 5.4 into new edge cobras, mach 1s and even merauders as a bolt in affair. all i know is ill be plenty happy with 8 psi and 500hp. my goal is about 425 rwhp. personally, doing it with a windsor pushrod engine is just too boring. if its not enough, ill build it up with forged pistons and rods and crank up the boost. 600-700 is possible without ever touching the cams, heads or intake. to say these engines are junk is just ignorant. belive what you want.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 12:53:29 PM
"my goal is about 425 rwhp"
GTO with headers vs. 5.4 with blower come ON man, that's a DOG. YES, the Mod motors make MAD power on boost and RPMs, BUT the LS-series does it even better. Heads that flow 340cfm+ with only 2-valves is freaking genious. Hell, my lowly AMC motors flow more then the 3v heads. If it's not a boosted 4v, it's not making the power it should. The 1st gen non-PI 2v's were a joke. They always will be too. The PI 2v's barely give 5.0HO's a run and the 99-02 4v's are dogs. The ONLY reason the 03/04 Cobra came with a blower is because Coletti called it like he saw it, a DOG and MADE them shove a blower on it. There's not enough meat in those motors to make any real displacement (unless your starting with the 5.4) and all the head flow in the world means jack without some cubes or boost.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2007, 01:04:43 PM
FYI the new pushrod Ford engine is the "Hurricane" engine program. Supposed to be going into F-150's within the next couple years and rumored for the next gen mustang. I read that unlike the mod motors, the Hurricane's design allows displacements up to 7.0 liters.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 01:25:27 PM
7.0L NOW you're talking. The new F150 better have that because the GMT900's are rocking.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: bhazard on January 22, 2007, 01:30:50 PM
140ci 190hp = 1.36hp/ci in 1987
who cares if it has a turbo.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 01:32:10 PM
Same thing with the HP ratings. It comes down to what do you want to do with your car. If you like that gut wrenching torque right off the line build a 5.0 if you like high rpm build a 4.6.
Neither one is a joke. At least Ford had the balls to step up to the plate and say we wanna be differnt and put a OHC in there flag ship Mustang. I havn't seen chevy do that.
No the chevy guys wanna complain that the 5.0 is old tech. How old is the 350?
Then the 4.6 comes out they start talking shiznit about how slow it is and this and that. I havn't seen chevy step up and try to think out side the box.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 02:59:02 PM
Chevy think outside the box??? Have you ever seen an LS motor? It SINGLE-HANDEDLY brought V8's into the 21st Century! 340cfm+ heads, incredible strength, all-aluminum construction, smaller package then the traditional small-block! A FULLY dressed LSx motor weighs LESS then 450Lbs. About on par with a 2.3T. Think about that, you can have a 400+ci engine with 600+ n/a horsepower for less weight then 4-popper and fit in a smaller hole to boot. You want to talk trash compare this:
FORD 4.6 DOHC 32V N/A = 305HP@5800/320TQ@4200
GM 4.6 DOHC 32V N/A = 320HP@6400/315TQ@4400
FORD 4.6 DOHC 32V Blower = 390HP@6000/390TQ@3500
GM 4.4 DOHC 32V Blower = 469HP@6400/439TQ@3900 with .2L less
The Northstar will mop the floor with the Mod ANY day. I mean come on, innovation with the Mustang? Fox chassis from 79-04, still has a solid rear with a 3-link, weighs 4400Lbs, etc, etc. The 4th Gen aro had the LS motor, SIX speed manual, an awesome torque-arm rear suspension, and weighed about 3400-3600 Lbs. The GTO has the LS2, IRS that actually works, 6-Speed again, etc, etc. Mustangs STILL don't come with a power antenna (yep, my 20yr old TBird does). Mustang innovation is an oxymoron. The 05-07's MAYBE, but they're still playing catch up.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2007, 03:12:23 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125096
The 4th Gen aro had the LS motor, SIX speed manual, an awesome torque-arm rear suspension, and weighed about 3400-3600 Lbs.
I read that fully loaded camaros and trans-ams were around 4000 lbs.
Oh don't forget the awesome 7.5 rear they put under them too!
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Chuck W on January 22, 2007, 03:13:18 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125096
I mean come on, innovation with the Mustang? Fox chassis from 79-04, still has a solid rear with a 3-link, weighs 4400Lbs, etc, etc.
4-LINK..NOT 3-LINK
A 4400# Mustang? Not likely.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: slamedcat on January 22, 2007, 03:21:16 PM
When was the last time you heard a Chevy guy say: Take a look at this. My Camaro has a DOHC 32v V8. NEVER
They see one engine PUSHROD. How long has the pushrod engine been around. Now compair that to OHC. The OHC is still in its infancy compared to the pushrod engine. All I'm saying is chevy doesn't want to take a chance. They know one thing pushrods make low end power where a normal everyday drive will use it.
I have one of both a 5.0 and a 4.6 each has its own use and is fun to drive. It says that the 4.6 SOHC was only 202hp. The 5.0 was only what 155hp?
I like the OHC because its fun to feel it push you into the seat when the rpms climb. But on the other hand the the pushrod is fun because it will lift the front end and carry it.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 03:22:57 PM
Chuck, the 05-07's are a 3-link (according to the factory lit, I've never actually crawled under one) and the GT500 weighs 4400 Lbs. Check out the last 2 issues of MM&FF or the Jan 07 Hot Rod for that.
Red, the 10-Bolt rear in the 4th gen is comparable to the 8.8 in the Stang. Lots of fast blown Stangs step up to 9"s or Dana's just like the GMers. My 98 Z28 6Spd Ttop car weighed 3600 Lbs with a 1/4 tank and no driver. I'd imagine a 1LE or even a stripper one would be significantly less (no t-tops, no leather, etc). I'm not saying the 4th gen FBod was "revolutionary", but compared to the still-a-fox Stang at the time it was more advanced. The GTO blows any Stang out of the water.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Chuck W on January 22, 2007, 03:30:42 PM
You didn't talk like you were discussing the new cars. Yes I know the 05+ are 3-link and yes I know they're heavier.
Also, the GT500 is not "typical".....
The F-Bodies are also "dead".
If you were comapring the F-bodies with the Mustangs counterparts of their era, then they weighed about the same....if not a little more depending.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 03:34:14 PM
First OHC internal combustion gasoline automobile engine in production= 1912 Alfa. Yep, in it's infancy. Pontiac had OHC 6's in the early 60's (Remember the Tempest Sprint?). The "mod" motor came out in 1991, same with the GM Northstar. Read about some new technology here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine#LS1
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 03:43:05 PM
Agreed Chuck. ANY fox-chassis Stang with decent power will destroy an f-bod. About the only thing the F had on the Fox as far as tech goes was the rear suspension. A 1LE equipped 4thGen will still outcorner just about anything. Get the weight out of the 05-07 and plunk some power down and the 3-link might hang. MM's new Watt's link kit will definately help. Weights are even though, a stock-style suspension hardtop 4thGen is within 100Lbs of a similar Notch Stang. Remember, all the body panels are plastic on the F's. Still comes down the engine though, Mustang's been lagging for awhile now. The last time aFord motor would beat down was the TPI era. LT1 and newer has been game over. I'd LOVE to see the Hurricane get slapped in the Stang though. Imagine, the 09 restyle, lose some weight, have a 400HP n/a Stang competeing with the LSx Camaros and Hemi Challengers. I just hope they all get diets, they're all sounding porky.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Ether947 on January 22, 2007, 03:46:43 PM
I would LOVE to have a DOHC 4.6 TT! Maybe one day. *dreams*
Oh, we forgot one.
302HO 225HP = ~0.75hp/ci :D Nice!
I would put the the S.O. numbers up but that's too embarrassing, with the almighty LS-Series numbers up there. Seriously, we all know what the LS Series was touched by the hand of god. It shows just what old-tech pushrods are capable of doing. We also know that GM can't sell them in anything other than a Vette. We also know that you HATE the Mustang with a passion so what difference does it make if Ford triples the HP output?
BTW, why do you have a 2.3t? From the way it sounds, a 5.0/5.8 would be well suited for you. Just curious.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Ether947 on January 22, 2007, 03:52:18 PM
gah! I'm slow. There's like 18 more posts since I started typing that. lol.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 04:05:57 PM
I hate the Mustang because it's "establishment". There's actually quite a few Mustangs I like, and I'll even admit to owning one before (a refrigerator-white 86 4-Cyl with a 289 4/Bbl C4 combo and a 2.73 peg-leg 7.5 rear, ugh). I just can't stand that development on the Mustang moves sooooooo slowly. Look at how advanced the TBirds/Cougars got from 79-05 and how far the Stang got. See my point? And the 2.3, well, I don't know. It's got awesome HP/ci #s but that's about it. Maybe because I hate the 302 so much I keep it out of spite. If I had money I'd pay Chuck to build me a X-Flow Turbo I6 for it ;) . Maybe it's efficiency. I like efficient things, and the 2.3T has it in spades. 200HP stock out of 140ci on 1970's technology in a smallish package with reasonable weight. You sneeze a decent turbo at one and they routinely do 300rwhp.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 22, 2007, 04:31:17 PM
Quote from: Red_LX;125088
FYI the new pushrod Ford engine is the "Hurricane" engine program. Supposed to be going into F-150's within the next couple years and rumored for the next gen mustang. I read that unlike the mod motors, the Hurricane's design allows displacements up to 7.0 liters.
Um.. The last I read, the Hurricane is going to be an OHC engine. The "BOSS 302" offered in the FMS catalogue has nothing in common with the (Hurricane-based) engine that will debut in the '08 or '09 Boss Mustang EXCEPT the number of cylinders and V arrangement.
As for the Northstar (one of my longtime favourite GM engines) it is very comparable to the 4V Mod engine, in size,weight, complexity and output - Michael, you conveniently forgot that the last Cobras (before the Terminator) were rated at 320 horses, identical to the Northstar's numbers. The three-valve Mod engine now generates 330 horses in the N/A Shelby/Hertz Mustangs.
You also forgot that the blown 4.4 Northstar is fitted into a $100k car (STS-V or SLR-V) while the blown Mod engine was fitted into a $35k Mustang, and that the Mustang engine was severely underrated (usually putting 390HP to the wheels in stock trim, which is closer to 450 at the flywheel). I've never seen a dyno of an STS-V so I don't know if it was underrated or not. Considering that you could buy three Terminator Cobras for the price of one STS-V I think the Mustang's 390 rated horses compares very well to the Northstar's 469.
Sadly, the Northstar is now on the chopping block anyway - it is a very expensive engine to manufacture and GM is looking to replace it. Should they take a step back and put a pushrod engine in its place BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Infiniti will laugh all the way to the bank. I fully believe that much of the reason the CTS-V never fares well in comparison tests is its Chevy heart. Luxury buyers want bleeding edge, not leftover 1950's technology.
Strangely enough, mainstream buyers demand technology too, and GM is finally realizing this. The old pushrod 4-cyl engines are long gone, and the pushrod V6's are on their way out. Sooner or later the pushrod V8's will follow (except in trucks, where low speed, high torque engines are a selling feature)
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2007, 04:50:38 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;125114
Um.. The last I read, the Hurricane is going to be an OHC engine.
According to the latest issue of Hot Rod, it's pushrod. :dunno:
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 04:52:56 PM
The last 2 issues of MM&FF, the Jan or Feb Hot Rod, and the Feb Motor Trend all called the Hurricane a pushrod motor.
I didn't actually know the 02 Cobra's were rated that high. I thought the 03/04 Mach was top dog. Well there you go, it's better then I thought. I couln't find any published #s for the Shelby GT and only 1 Hertz was sold to the public. If it does come out at 4.6/3v with 330HP it will be a huge step for the mods (almost as big as the 3v 300 was anyways).
The STS-V's were only supposed to rate at 440HP if that tells you anything. They are absolute monsters. There are confirmed reports of 465HP rear-wheel #s. You do have to remember that the Northstar comes in a LOT of GM's, inluding 97-03 Oldsmobubbles. Not to mention the crate program. All that's for nought though as the LSx will hand the Northstar OR the Mod their respective @$$es in a smaller, lighter package. I'd love to do some comparos on the 3800 Series II both n/a, blown, and turbo'd to a OHC V6 but I can't think of any that are "performance" engines. That's what I'm getting at, the pushrod motors are still better. The Grand Prix GT in the garage (200HP/225TQ) would rip the snot out of my old SHO (220HP/222TQ) DOHC even with less "Rating". The 240/280 rated GTP is even better. The OHC's just don't have it yet. I think the problem is in the packaging, to get a DOHC V8 to 360ci it would take up the same space as 2 LSx's. Even all-aluminum they are heavy, all that valvetrain adds up.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 04:57:19 PM
The 400HP/400TQ LS2 with 6-Speed in a $29K GTO will go down as the most HP/$ in the 2000's. GM sold every last one Ozzie could build before the 07 crash standards. The new aro will be heavier and the 400HP version will probably cost more.
Of course, we got $17K 200HP Turbo-4's in the 80's and now there's $24K 200HP Blown-4's. Ooops.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Dogcharmer on January 22, 2007, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: slamedcat;125101
The OHC is still in its infancy compared to the pushrod engine.
Actually Fords first SOHC engine was produced from 1965 to 68. It was a 427 that they sold retail at Ford dealers for between $2500 and $5000. OHC technology aint new to Ford.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 05:13:42 PM
I forgot about that one. I know they did a 429 cammer but it was a VERY low-production piece for racing only. I completely flaked on the 427's.
I did some more research on the 4v Cobras though. I had assumed that the Mach was top dog, but the 99 and the 01-02 "rate" at 320HP. Of course, the 00's were never made due to the 99's being absolute . Turns out the 01/02's aren't that hot either. Ford is listing some 93% of the 01/02 Cobra crate motors still in stock some 5 years after production halted on them and there was a class-action that got settled out of court. My guess would be that the Mach would dyno RWHP #'s higher then even the 01/02's. The 00 Cobra R has like 0 information though. Any idea what came in it?
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2007, 06:59:01 PM
'00 Cobra R had a DOHC 5.4, if I recall correctly it was the same aluminum block/aluminum head engine that came in the Lincoln Navigator.
Does anyone else find it retarded that the only regular production vehicle an all-aluminum, DOHC 5.4 has been offered in is the Navigator? What a sweet engine to waste on a land barge.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 07:51:40 PM
I have the Hot Rod where they did the testing to make the Navi engine the GT engine. The crank was turned too much in the radii and kept exploding, so they had to redo more then thought. I was impressed to see just how far Ford went fixing that motor for boost. Can they get a 5.4GT into a fox Stang without a ridiculous hood?
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: shame302 on January 22, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
modulars are such dogs. take this one for example. take a good look, it should look familliar ;) http://www.koenigsegg.com/thecars/engineering.asp?engineering=2 Type: V8 cast aluminium, 4 valves per cylinder, double overhead camshafts. Cam cover of carbonfibre. Displacement: 4.700 cm3. Compression: 8.6:1 Weight: 215 kg Lubrication system: Dry sump with unique oil spray piston cooling. Oil cooler. Oil: SAE 10W60 fully synthetic racing. Oil tank capacity: 12 litres (2.64 gallons) Induction system: Sequential, multipoint fuel injection. Dual Rotrex centrifugal compressors with 1.4 max boost pressure. Intercooler. Fuel: 98 RON unleaded. Ignition system: Direct coil on plug. Transistorised. Power output: 806 bhp at 6.900 rpm. Maximum torque: 920 Nm (678 ftlb) at 5.700 rpm. Maximum rpm: 7.600 rpm. (http://www.koenigsegg.com/graphics/enlarge/engine1.jpg)
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: CougarSE on January 22, 2007, 10:47:56 PM
Seems someone stocked there 10klb inventory with the wrong manufacture parts.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 22, 2007, 11:43:24 PM
Take a good long look at this: http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hdrp_0511_drag_racing_ls1_chevy_camaro/index.html
352ci displacement, 105mm throttle-body, Bosch 160 lb/hr injectors, stock GM coil packs, 1,697 hp with 30 psi of boost using a pair of 88mm turbos
On a factory GM block. MMmm-mmm them's good #'s. 6.86 at 205 mph. What's the fastest Mod?
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 22, 2007, 11:45:54 PM
Quote from: Red_LX;125118
According to the latest issue of Hot Rod, it's pushrod. :dunno:
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125119
The last 2 issues of MM&FF, the Jan or Feb Hot Rod, and the Feb Motor Trend all called the Hurricane a pushrod motor.
This was from Detroit News a few months ago - the article has expired, but it was quoted on this messageboard in the "stangwagon" thread:
Quote
The 5.0-liter V-8 crate engine will go on sale early next year. It will be available in a variety of configurations with between 340 and 500 horses of power. The base block will start at $1,759, with prices for complete engines ranging from $4,650 to $10,000. "It's designed to withstand the rigors of racing, but is also affordable and streetable," said Jamie Allison, manager of the Ford Racing Performance Group. "It's a new old engine." Other than the name and the number of cylinders, there will not be a lot of similarity between the Boss 302 crate engine and the production version. While the iron-block crate engine uses old-fashioned push-rod technology, Hall said the production version will be an overhead-cam engine. It is also likely to have variable valve timing to boost fuel economy. Ford killed the Hurricane program in 2005 because of concerns about development costs and rising gasoline prices. That decision dismayed many buttstuffysts who said the company desperately needed a more powerful V-8 to compete with DaimlerChrysler AG's Hemi and General Motors Corp.'s Vortec V-8s. Ford Americas President Mark Fields revived the Hurricane project earlier this year, but later decided to change the name.
Quote
You do have to remember that the Northstar comes in a LOT of GM's, inluding 97-03 Oldsmobubbles. Not to mention the crate program.
Actually the Northstar was installed in Oldsmobile Auroras, most Cadillacs, and Pontiac Bonneville GXP's. Neither the Aurora or the GXP sold very well, so it hardly qualifies as a LOT of cars. The Modular engine, however, was installed in 91-07 Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car, 93-98 Mark VIII, 95-?? Continental, 94-97 T-Bird/Cougar, 96-07 Mustang, 97-07 F-series trucks, 97-07 E-series vans, 00-07 Explorer/Mountaneer/Aviator, 97-07 Navigator/Expedition, 96-07 Panoz roadsters, and the GT. Not to mention the crate program. And Aussie vehicles. A single year's production of the F150 alone probably outnumbers all years Northstar production combined. And, I might gloat, all Modular engines except the Continental were in RWD (or RWD-biased 4WD) vehicles :D. When you think about it, there are a LOT of modular engines out there.
Quote
All that's for nought though as the LSx will hand the Northstar OR the Mod their respective @$$es in a smaller, lighter package.
The 330-345 horsepower LS1 in an F-body would be slapped silly by a 390-horse 4.6 Terminator (and would likely be closely matched by a 330-horse 3-valve Shelby GT). The 400-horse LS6 MIGHT edge a Terminator, but only barely, and certainly not in a heavier GTO (compared to a 2003-4 Cobra). The 500-horse 5.4-liter Shelby GT engine would certainly show the LS6 who was master anyway. The 500-horse LS7 would in turn walk away from a Shelby, but a 550-horse SC'd GT engine handily outguns the LS7.
Quote
I'd love to do some comparos on the 3800 Series II both n/a, blown, and turbo'd to a OHC V6 but I can't think of any that are "performance" engines. That's what I'm getting at, the pushrod motors are still better. The Grand Prix GT in the garage (200HP/225TQ) would rip the snot out of my old SHO (220HP/222TQ) DOHC even with less "Rating". The 240/280 rated GTP is even better. The OHC's just don't have it yet.
Comparing a 1989-94 model Taurus to a late 2000's vehicle is like comparing a 190-horse Turbo Coupe to a 200-horse Civic SI. The Civic would run rings around the TC, as well it should, given its near 20-year technological advantage. Everything is faster now than back in the late 80's/early 90's. Hell, most modern cars are faster than the muscle cars of the late 60's. And they do it with smaller, multivalve engines. The base (and only) Honda Odyssey minivan engine produces more power than any pushrod Mustang engine made since 1971.
GM's own "High Feature" 3.6 liter DOHC V6 would handily outrun the SC'd 3800 (which is why the "High feature" engine actually replaces the SC'd 3800). Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Honda all have 24-valve V6's that embarrass the supercharged 3800's output as well, as does the new Ford Duratec 3.5. The 3800SC, BTW, is an all cast-iron engine (including the heads) that very likely weighs more than any of the above mentioned aluminum V6 engines.
Pushrod engines are going the way of the flathead, like it or not. No volume production manufacturers on earth rely on pushrod engines any more, except GM and Chrysler. puppiesanese, German, Swedish, Korean, French, British, Chinese and Italian - they ALL use OHC engines. Even in USA, Ford uses OHC engines almost exclusively (the only exceptions I can think of being the 4.2 truck and 3.0 Ranger engines). GM has the Ecotech 4's, High Feature 6's, Vortech inline 4's, 5's and 6's, Northstar V'8's, not to mention the 4's it buys from Toyota, V6's it buys from Honda, and the Korean 4's found in the rebadged Daewoo cars, and and is slowly phasing out its pushrod V6's. With a few exceptions DaimlerChrysler uses OHC engines across the board (and certainly the Mercedes part of the company wouldn't be caught dead with a pushod engine) - the 3.8 in the minivan, the Hemi's, some Jeep engines and the Viper's V10 being the few exceptions.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 22, 2007, 11:51:03 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125210
Take a good long look at this: http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hdrp_0511_drag_racing_ls1_chevy_camaro/index.html
352ci displacement, 105mm throttle-body, Bosch 160 lb/hr injectors, stock GM coil packs, 1,697 hp with 30 psi of boost using a pair of 88mm turbos
On a factory GM block. MMmm-mmm them's good #'s. 6.86 at 205 mph. What's the fastest Mod?
I forget the actual numbers, but I'd have to say the TT GT featured in the latest MM&FF magazine would have to be a contender. I forget the actual HP figures, but it was well north of 1200, in a street-legal, air conditioned, fully street drivable, full interior car.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 22, 2007, 11:56:21 PM
Quoth the March 2007 issue of Hot Rod: "The Hurricane is an all-new Ford engine family featuring pushrod technology (yes!) and architecture roomy enough to accommodate 7.0L displacements."
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: slamedcat on January 23, 2007, 01:36:05 AM
Quote from: Dogcharmer;125122
Actually Fords first SOHC engine was produced from 1965 to 68. It was a 427 that they sold retail at Ford dealers for between $2500 and $5000. OHC technology aint new to Ford.
Yes but you see that pic thats as far as it got. How many companies have invested time and money into a OHC program that has lasted more than a couple of years before being sed? I still stand by what I said about it being in its infancy. It doesn't matter what year the first OHC was built. It is what has come from what they did build? You can list every engine from 1900-2000 and how many OHC engines are there? A hand full compaired to the tried and true pushrod.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Ether947 on January 23, 2007, 06:21:35 AM
Quote from: Red_LX;125215
Quoth the March 2007 issue of Hot Rod: "The Hurricane is an all-new Ford engine family featuring pushrod technology (yes!) and architecture roomy enough to accommodate 7.0L displacements."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_engine
Quote from: wikipedia
The Boss is a forthcoming large-displacement V8 engine (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_engine") project at Ford Motor Company (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company"). The engine project was reportedly cancelled in 2005 as the company focused on its existing Triton V8 and V10 (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Triton_engine"), but was reportedly[1] (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_engine#_note-0") revived in early 2006 by Mark Fields (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fields_%28businessman%29"). The large engine will compete with DaimlerChrysler (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DaimlerChrysler")'s new Hemi (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi_engine") and General Motors (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors")' large Vortec engines (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine#6200").
The Boss engine will reportedly displace 6.2 L on introduction, with the ability to exceed 7.0 L in future applications, and produce more than 425 hp (317 kW) and 425 ft·lbf (576 N·m). It will be built at Cleveland Engine (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Engine") in Cleveland, Ohio (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland%2C_Ohio"). The first application will be Ford's F-Series (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series") pickup trucks produced at Dearborn Truck (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dearborn_Truck"). It has been rumored that the Boss will retain many of the Modular V8 (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine") design cues such as a deep skirt block with cross bolted main caps, oiling system design, and overhead camshaft (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_camshaft") valve train arrangement. The Boss' largest departure from the Modular V8 is the significantly wider 116mm bore spacing.
The engine was initially called the "Hurricane", but this was changed in mid 2006 to the storied Boss name[2] (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Boss_engine#_note-1") in the wake of Hurricane Katrina (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina").
Ok, didn't expect all the linkage. That's pretty cool... sorta. Anyhoos, it looks like no one really knows what Ford is up to. Kinda like the 05 Mustang and it's rear suspension setup.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 23, 2007, 10:05:31 AM
Sure, a STOCK GT 550HP BLOWN 5.4 might have more HP then the LS7's N/A#s. Throw a blower on the LS7, then what? Yeah, I thought so. I never said the mods were bad under boost (quite the opposite actually) I said they were bad N/A. They simply do not have enough ci to use all that technology UNLESS they're boosted. So yes, grab a Terminator or Lightning crate and go to town. But for a smaller, lighter package you can have a n/a LS motor do 90% of a BLOWN mods power or MORE. Or you can forced induction the LS and have a smaller lighter package that will flat-out embaress the mod. And Ls's have been in 97-07 Vette's, 98-02 Camaros/Firebirds, 98-07 Chevy/GMC trucks, 98-07 Chevy/GMC vans, 06-up W-Body FWD's, etc, etc. There's a LOT of LS's out there. When a "old school no-tech" 2v pushrod V8's head flows MORE then the 4v DOHC head there's a problem, and that's what we have.
The SHO's DOHC Yamaha-built V6 was designed MANY years AFTER the 3800 hit the board. On paper it should easily mop the n/a Series II's butt, it just doesn't. It takes the SHO soooooo long to get into the powerband that the GP is gone. I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the GTP club that agree with me (world's fastest street driven, full-bodied, SC3800 goes 9.32 with FWD). There's at least 5 members of the Portland chapter in the 12's with their daily drivers.
That TT GT wouldn't even make the Top 100 fastest LSx list. It struggled with 10's before being booted for no cage. Kurt Urban's LS2 Nova did Hot Rod's Drag Week averaging bottom 9's on twin blowers. Parish's Silverado averaged bottom 10's (10.06 best) on a single-turbo LS1 with A/C, heat, full luxury, AND towed a 10,000LB trailer to boot. The Black WS6 at the Pump Gas Drags is a legit street-driven car with A/C and a full leather interior on 93 Octane pump gas running 8's. That GT needed C16 to make it's 1200HP. The Mod has been around longer then the LS, has had more factory re-engineering, and still can't beat the smaller, lighter, pushrod motor. Hot Rod got 632 RWHP out of a 100% stock LS7 with a tune and the GM Stage I Hot-Cam. I stand by my statement, the Mod is a DOG unless you boost it, and even then it's not stellar. I wonder if Joe Morgan's lowly 2.3T goes faster and makes more power then the world's best boosted 4.6? It just might.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Red_LX on January 23, 2007, 10:11:36 AM
Man, you've really got a hard on for the LS series engines, don't you?
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 23, 2007, 11:29:09 AM
I like a LOT of engines, just not the Mod Dog motor. I have an LS2, AMC 401 Dog-Leg, Buick 401 Nailhead, 3800 Series II, KA24DE, Porsche 2.5 slant-4, and 3 2.3T motors in the garage (or in a car) right now. I've assembled Ford 302W's, AMC 360/390/401's, Chevy 350's, Subaru Flat-4 OHC's, Porsche 2.5 slant 4's, Rambler 327's, and a host of others I can't remember along with quite a few 2.3T's. I'm not a "1-brand" guy, I like just about any car (I despise anyhting to do with VW) and I like building engines. The Mod motor is a dog, and I called it out. I'm just backing it up with various examples (like the Northstar, the LS, and the W small-block). I'd LOVE to see the Boss/Hurricane develop, pushrod or not. The mod's HUGE weakness (other then ci) is that the heads really don't flow to the potential they could. The 3v is a HUGE leap for these engines (it's now flowing better then the 4v) but it's going to take a complete re-vamp to get it "right". Remember back in 93 when the LT1 debuted in the FBod? It was a failure. It was just a standard 350 SBC with reverse-cooling and a horrible ignition with a decent set of heads. The all-new LSx motor in 98 will kill ANY SBC. That's what Ford needs to do. Take all the lessons learned on the mod, and apply all the good stuff to a new engine, even if that means OHC's. A 360ci DOHC 4v all-aluminum engine with heads that flowed at least 300cfm would rock the planet. A 281/331 that struggles to flow 250 ported will always be a step behind. Check out some sand rail forums to see what the Northstar is doing. Those guys LOVE that engine and TT 600-800HP rails are the "common norm". And they pull them from JY's. It's pretty impressive.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: CougarSE on January 23, 2007, 01:11:42 PM
I don't understand. A valve is still opened and closed be it by an overhead cam or one in the block, why dog the ohc? It just has less parts to bend and brake. Its obvious that the lsx has nothing more than a cubic inch advantage over the mod motor.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: V8Demon on January 23, 2007, 01:49:23 PM
Quote from: ThunderChicken
The 330-345 horsepower LS1 in an F-body would be slapped silly by a 390-horse 4.6 Terminator (and would likely be closely matched by a 330-horse 3-valve Shelby GT
the GTO rated at 350 HP lost quite a few acceleration tests to the '05 3v 300 HP Mustang as well. It was a major reason for a motor revision the following year.
I've seen Automatic 3v Mustangs with similar mods to mine run consistent 13.2's and 13.3's. A simple gear swap from the stock 3.31's to 3.73's in mine would make mine a 12 second car. I'm gonna cheat and put a blower on it with 3.55's instead:D
WHY you say? 'Cause right now the Cougar IS faster. The major decidin factor between the LSx motors and the Mod motors besides valvetrain layout is sheer displacement. Shrink an LS2 to 280 cubic inches and tell me what kind of #'s it makes.....
Like the old saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement"
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 23, 2007, 01:49:24 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125248
Sure, a STOCK GT 550HP BLOWN 5.4 might have more HP then the LS7's N/A#s. Throw a blower on the LS7, then what? Yeah, I thought so. actually) I said they were bad N/A.
But you said the magic word: STOCK. GM has never, to my knowledge, ever released a forced induction LSx engine in any vehicle in any market. Rumour has it that they're going to in a future "super Vette", but right now, they don't. Right now, 600+ horses is just a pulley change and tune away on the SC'd 5.4. What would it take to put the LS7 over the 600 horse mark?
You're comparing a 330 cubic engine to a 427 cubic inch engine, and growling that the 330 only outguns the 427 because of forced induction. That sounds exactly as bad as the NA Cobra guys growling that the LS1 F-bodies would outrun them only because of bigger engines, or like a Honda V6 Accord driver growling because that supercharged Grand Prix GTP only managed to keep up with him because it's supercharged. Regardless of what method the Mod engines use to outclass the LSx engines, they just do.
Oh, and you asked about the world's fastest mod? How about J.R. Granatelli's 6.75-second @ 206MPH mod-engined Mustang? (http://"http://www.granatellimotorsports.com/racer-jrgranatelli.htm") Last I checked, 6.75@206 is faster than 6.86@205...
The Twin Turbo GT, BTW, should soon be making over 1500 horses when it gets its new turbochargers putting out 28 lbs of boost. Not bad for 330ci...
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: V8Demon on January 23, 2007, 01:52:02 PM
Quote
The Twin Turbo GT, BTW, should soon be making over 1500 horses when it gets its new turbochargers putting out 28 lbs of boost. Not bad for 330ci...
My buddy got rid of his motor in the race car and a new one is getting fine tuned right now. Stroker 351, vortech, 28 pounds of boost, 1300 Horse......I'll get pictures soon....
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 23, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Flockhart;125266
Like the old saying goes "there's no replacement for displacement"
Actually, there is a replacement. There's an example of this replacement hanging off the exhaust manifold of Michael's own car :D Every manufacturer has used this "replacement", including GM (Buick 3.8 Turbo, Buick 3800 SC, Sunbird 1.8 turbo, Sprint 1.0 turbo, Ecotech 2.0 turbo/2.0 supercharged, and the rumoured blown 7.0 Super Vette coming out to compete with the 500ci 600-horse Viper, to name just a few)
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: V8Demon on January 23, 2007, 02:14:48 PM
That's not a replacement.....it's an added bonus;)
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 23, 2007, 08:07:37 PM
The difference is effieciency. The ports on an LSx outflow the ports on a 4v mod stock-for-stock and ported-for-ported. More air = more power. Kinda like a 302 breathes better then a flathead.
The LS7 needs a $200 cam to make 632HP n/a. I was throwing out the GT cause it takes the biggest, baddest, most exclusive Mod WITH a blower to top the far cheaper n/a LSx. Compare price-point to price-point and the LS walks the Mod in every class. The Hemi loses because DCX charges sooo much for them. It's a better motor too though.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Chuck W on January 23, 2007, 08:27:18 PM
You know, unless you're planning on dropping an LS-whatever or a Magnum motor into your Fox, what is the point of over 1/2 this thread?
The original poster was talking about Mod motor swaps into Ford cars...not whether the LS-X motors are far superior to anything else in the galaxy this side of FTL drives.
All this head flow rate is splitting hairs, especially when talking about what are for the most part going to be street cars.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 23, 2007, 09:57:56 PM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;125319
The difference is effieciency. The ports on an LSx outflow the ports on a 4v mod stock-for-stock and ported-for-ported. More air = more power. Kinda like a 302 breathes better then a flathead.
The LS7 needs a $200 cam to make 632HP n/a. I was throwing out the GT cause it takes the biggest, baddest, most exclusive Mod WITH a blower to top the far cheaper n/a LSx. Compare price-point to price-point and the LS walks the Mod in every class. The Hemi loses because DCX charges sooo much for them. It's a better motor too though.
There are no real "compare price point to price point" options, given the completely different classes of cars these engines are installed into, but if you insist:
A (well optioned) $30k Mustang will outrun a (no longer produced) $35k GTO, and will slap an LS3 (or whatever the FWD 5.3-liter LSx engine is called) $30k Impala SS silly, but is incomparable to a faster $45k LS2 Corvette.
A $45k Shelby GT500 will eat an LS2 Corvette's lunch, but will be beaten by a $75k Z06.
Ford doesn't have a $75k Z06 competitor, but a $150k GT will eat a Z06's lunch. Likewise, Chevy doesn't have a $150k GT competitor, which is why I say "price point to price point" is not a real option.
As for efficiency, well, an N/A 4.6 3-valve generates the same power as an N/A 5.7 LS1 (as last installed into F-bodies) and does so with a 64 cubic inch disadvantage, so the mod engine is clearly more efficient.
More air = more power? That's what the supercharger is for.
I'll admit that when the two-valve engine made its debut it was a dog, but it was designed in the late 80's and produced in the early 90's, back when EVERYTHING was a dog. The 280-horse 4-valve was very competitive with anything else short of an exotic car when it made its debut in the 1993 Mark VIII. The PI two valve was an improvement over the original two valve, but the modular engine really started coming into its own with the blown TWO-VALVE Lightning (that took 500 cubic inches and 10 cylinders, not to mention a $50k+ price tag, to defeat as the world's fastest truck). The Terminator was an improvement over the Lightning engine (making more power with a smaller engine), and the three valve is an improvement over both the two valve and the N/A four valve. The FOUR VALVE GT and GT500 engines are in turn improvements over the Lightning's two valve engine. In other words, the engine family has been evolving and improving dramatically, just like the LSx engines, and cubic inch for cubic inch, are way, WAY more efficient, blown or not.
But I digress. Chuck's right. If you've got a hard on for LSx engines, use an LSx engine. Just don't whine when a stock Terminator-powered car hands you your ass (unless you're gonna buy the really, REALLY expensive LS7, in which case for the same or less money you could always use a slightly modified GT500 engine for more power).
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 24, 2007, 12:55:25 AM
Somebody asked about Mod motors as swaps, and I gave the facts. If you have a hard-on for a particular motor because Ford made it, all the better for you. I have no love for any one brand. I'd just as soon slap the AMC 401 into a TC as I'd slap an LSx into an AMX. You have your opinions, and I have mine. Facts are there are three different companies making LSx swap kits for fox-chassis Fords as off-the-shelf, bolt-in kits and exactly zero manufacturers doing Mod kits. The Mod's (especially the DOHC and the 5.4's) are HUGE and really don't take well to swapping (ie- cutting the shock towers out of a 65-70 Mustang, etc). My opinion, that is thus far being supported by the near ZERO aftermarket, is that the Mods will go down as underperforming N/A dogs and the only "respected" ones will be the cars that originally came with blown versions (ie- Terminator, GT, GT500, Lightning). You'll NEVER find a Mod in my driveway until something drastic happens with them (Like a 3v 5.4 or a blown version for less then an arm and a leg crate).
BTW, that Camaro is not the world's fastest LSx. Australia is home to 2 High 5-second twin-turbo cars.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: stuntmannick on January 24, 2007, 04:26:32 AM
I wonder what would happen if GM made 4.6 and 5.4 LSx motors and threw eatons on top? Really going to think hard on this one... :dunce:
Ford's got some serious R&D to do before any of us can be proud of the mods (from a performance aspect). <[COLOR="White"]IMHO[/COLOR]
Till then I'll keep dreaming of my dart block 408T :D
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 24, 2007, 09:35:35 AM
The 5.3 DOD LS4 FWD makes a computer-limited 303HP. In the RWD truck version it's 310HP/335FtLbs with the LS heads (a Vortec-head version is also available @295HP). Seeing as how 400HP LS2's (6.0) are routinely putting 500+ to the wheels with a Magnusun as the only add-on, I'd say the 5.3 would be around 440HP on the boost if it wasn't shoved into a truck chassis.
A Ford motor I would like to see come here (hell the whole car) is the European spec Focus RS Turbo. That 4-Cyl makes phenominal power. Of course, it wouldn't swap into a fox.
Here's some fox swaps that are available: 302/351W, 351C, 429/460, LSx, SBC, 2.3/2.3T, 4.0V6. I have seen mods swapped in (interestingly, only Terminator motors, and the MM&FF project car with the Lightning 5.4) as well as a 428CJ FE motor, an AMC 360, a SC3.8, and a BBC. Of course the 385-series makes sense from a power standpoint, but they're HEAVY even with aluminum heads. The various SBF's aren't anything different, as the mods aren't either. I like the 2.3T and the 4.0 swap. I find it interesting that the V6 guys found a V6 to stick with instead of stepping up to the V8's. Some of those guys are making AWESOME power to boot. The most interesting fox swap I've seen is the 500ci Caddy motor on spray that goes LOW 9's.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: Thunder Chicken on January 24, 2007, 12:23:28 PM
There was a guy on this forum that had a 500CI caddy engine in a Turbo Coupe. Cad-T-Bird was his user name IIRC
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: 1BDBIRD on January 24, 2007, 12:30:20 PM
ls2,magnuson charger,slp headers,exaust,hot-cam in a gto has to be worth 10's in the quarter. I seen a stock 06 GTO go 11.20's on nitto555's,and a 150shot,and some linglifelter(typo) bolton's. I also am a GM mechanic,worked on many gto's. They are very easy to work on.But the ls7 is a beast of its own. It has special everything in it to make 505hp,lightweight crank,rods,pistons,more stroke shorter piston skirts,drysump oiling system,ect. You almost have to be trained to change the oil. But anyway this subject got way off course. Remember foxtbirdcougarforums.com, not ls1tech.com!!!
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 24, 2007, 03:28:02 PM
A bunch of members of ls2gto.com got together and stuffed a LS7 crate motor into a 05 GTO. It went 11.45 first pass. Now they're busy welding rollcage ;) They already have the GM Hot Cam to bump it up to 632HP. I'm still amazed at how fast they went for how stock the car is (100% bone stock except the LS7 and the DR's on stock wheels, even has a paper air filter).
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: EricCoolCats on January 24, 2007, 04:05:31 PM
K...if the g match is over... ;)
Before I even owned the convertible I had big plans for it. At the time (1993-94) it was to drop in the Mark VIII DOHC 4.6 engine. And you know, it was so easy to say that when a) I didn't even own the car yet and b) I was totally ignorant as to the wiring situation for the proposed engine. So I get the car and...well...I just happened to have a 5.0 built up, sitting on the stand doing nothing. That was a no-brainer swap.
In my case, with such a heavy car, I need about every lb-ft of torque I can get. Since OHC engines generally make less torque than OHV engines, that was one bullet I dodged with the 5.0. Plus this car is a show/cruising car, never meant for the strip or anything. Why do I need to scream at 7 grand? It was a nice swap to dream about...but the reality is that it would never be a practical thing for a convertible like mine. Now other peoples' coupes, with a solid roof and good structural reinforcement, those make better candidates.
The biggest hurdles that I see for any OHC motor swap into a Fox car are the electronics and the physical size. And that's just the swap part. If you get it to fit, and then figure out all the wiring, you STILL have to contend with the expense of things going wrong somewhere down the line because the tolerances are so much tighter. There is no room for mistakes. Plus you have things like the earlier 4.6's with the oil blow-by issue, which is funny because you think they'd have learned from the SO 5.0's about that. And the best part: reading about the engine on the Internet. As shown here, be prepared for LOTS of opinions (ex: this year is better than that year). Who's right and who's wrong? Flip a coin.
And then there's the cost. As Mike has pointed out, there's little aftermarket support. But Ford's modular motors are freakin' expensive to begin with. And then there's the transmission which also has to be upgraded, which will also more than likely result in a new driveshaft. It's not just a motor swap...it's a driveline swap. So, figure engine, harness, computer, related sensors, transmission, possibly another harness for that, new driveshaft. If you upgrade cams, dig deep. If you tweak the computer, dig deeper. With the modular motors there is no such thing as a "good deal". You either get screwed, or royally screwed. It all depends on how much money you're willing to throw at it. ;)
I love the novelty of it. That's what this car hobby thing is all about. And I will be the last person to say, "This can't be done." It can, and it's been done before (the DOHC Cobra motor in a dark green '88 T-Bird Pro Street comes to mind...I've seen it). But in every single case it cost WAY more than a comparable 5.0 swap, it took months to wire, and even more time to work out the bugs. In other words it's not a weekend deal. It's a wintertime deal, if you're lucky.
But if you have the time, the wads of cash laying around, the resources and the willingness to do it, that's just way cool. That's the kind of ingenuity I like to see with these cars. Or any cars in general.
Title: Are "Mod-Motor Swaps" The new TREND
Post by: P71 on January 24, 2007, 04:24:18 PM