Ok...Lowdown First...got this 1987 XR7 for free in August 2005. Around $9400 has gone into it - I've managed to overpay for just about everything on it (I'm not complaining - I obviously like the car). This car has 162,000 miles on it (I'm the second owner I've put on 4000 miles on it in one year). This car SHUDDERS over rough and not-so-rough roads. Both the front and rear of the car act like an old lady wearing loose underwear. This makes no sense - I had a 1987 LS V6 which rode MUCH smoother - This car should ride like a baby Mark VII. JUST ON THE SUSPENSION - I've changed the following over the past 13 months:
Replaced Rear Horizontal Shocks
Replaced L/S & R/S Stabilizer Bars
Replaced L/S & R/S Tie Rod Ends
Front End Alignment
Replaced Rack & Pinion Assembly
Front Struts
Front Brakes
Front Rotors
Rear Shocks
Rear Brakes
Rear Drums
L/S Wheel Cylinder
R/S Wheel Cylinder
Can anyone suggest something I may be missing? I am giving this car to both of my sons in January 2007 and the two mechanics I use can't seem to think of anything else.
Maybe the tires? I have seen and driven cars that shuddered cause of the tires. Even brand new tires once in a while will have problems. I would find a shop that has a tire balancing machine that can simulate road force on them or replace them.
does it do it at any perticular speeds? if your wheels are out of balance it will shake at certain speeds (ie. 45-55 mph)
i agree with it might be the tires, new ones can have defects, and old ones can get flat spots it they have sat...a quick easy way to check for severe distortion, is to jack the car up and spin each wheel, if its bad, u can see where it is somewhat oval.
I am sure the tires DO need a speed-balancing. At speeds over 60 the steering wheel DOES vibrate. But when I wiite that the car shudders, I mean it hits a bump and bottoms out so bad the entire car shudders, at any speed. It's like the car has 20 year old shoocks and struts on it. The tires look Ok - they are about 40% used.
I am primarily looking to you guys for suggestions at to perhaps other suspension parts I should replace (You know something obvious like "Hey you forgot to change the Johnson Rod" - stuff like that". As far as car suspensions goes, believe me even your WIVES know more about this than I do.
balljoints,Strut mounts etc need to be checked
I'm thinking possibly the bushings...either the stock ones are completely worn out, or the replacements are urethane which transmit much more vibration. What kind of shocks/struts did you put in?
My old '88 XR7, and '88 T-Bird Sport, both rode like a truck. Wait, I take that back...my current Mountaineer rides better than both of those cars ever did. The sport V8 suspension is just naturally harsher vs. the base V8/V6 suspension. I attribute that to the springs...they had a more aggressive rate. What you could do is have the springs inspected, make sure all the isolators are in place (front and rear), and that none of the springs are broken. If everything checks out...change them. In this case a downgrade will give a much better ride but should still handle fine. I think that's probably the only way you'd be satisfied with the ride quality. Trust me, those thoughts went through my mind many, many times (like, wintertime).
Best price on Johnson rods (http://"http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=18") i've seen.
Ball joints, strut mounts and control arm bushings.....
So did it do the shuddering thing before you started swapping parts out?
It sounds like you want a soft, compliant ride. Find a set of V6 springs, make sure the rubber isolators are on them, and install them. I hope you used all the rubber bushings in the shock and strut installations.
Also, check your control arm bushings.
And most importantly, go get the tires balanced and inspected by someone that knows what they're looking at. You can't spend too much money on the four parts of your car that actually contact the pavement. They're the most critical part of your car's behavior in handling and ride.
I rated this car as a P.O.S. when I first got it - it was barely road-worthy. I poured more than $1700 (1300 Parts & 400 Labor) into it the first month I had it. It's ride was the first day I got it, and it hasn't NEARLY improved enough since then, not for that kind of money.
Of Course, I DO want a soft and compliant ride - I'm 46 years old and my days of riding on a skateboard (or it's synonym, A Camaro) are long past. Beside that, and more importantly, I want that car to handle the ed road, not skitter all over the road every time it hits a rough patch - My KIDS are getting this thing and I want it stable, solid and sound.
, Guys....I THOUGHT Ball Joints and no one took me seriously. And since I have the skill set of Paula Abdul when it comes to automotive suspension systems, I need to always defer to these mechanics, who seem to know less than I do. Here's the laundry list between now and 1Q 2007:
Tire Balancing [Being done today - but this is a separate issue entirely]
Ball Joints - I want them replaced.
[Examine] Strut Mounts
[Examine] Control Arm Bushings
[Examine] Front and Rear Springs - Will will probably replace these anyway, regardless of what they find.
Looks like another $1200 worth of work - Minimum.
Anyone Else - PLEASE Chime in. This is my last fling with this particular money-hungry hooker.
I wish you were closer - I'd fix all that for half the price. lol..
Perhaps one of our compadres can get you fixed up in the NYC area...
Better get the kneutsen valve to go with that or it will wear out your power bands causing the engine oil bypass to clog. And you DEFINATELY don't want that.
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=28
Now I need Doc :grinno:
Eric:
I went back and re-read your post (Much Appreciated BTW). My question: Do the Springs, Bushings, Struts and Shocks all swap properly between the LS and XR7? If so I may order LS parts for the suspension....My mother had a 1972 Maverick with a MUCH better ride than this thing....when I say this is by far the worst riding car I've ever owned, I'm not exaggerating.
Do they swap over? Yes. No modifications are necessary. Now for the springs you should think about V8 LS springs only (for the non-sport V8). The V6 springs will drop the front end a few inches and while that looks cool, handling will suffer. The only real differences between a V8 LS and an XR7, as far as suspension, is the sway bars and the springs. Since your XR7 already has the bigger sway bars, cornering will still be fine. Your real focus should therefore be on the springs.
Now shocks/struts: I don't know what you have now, but that could also be another part of the problem. A softer strut will allow better absorption of road imperfections (which, seeing as you're from Da Bronx, you could probably write novels about). Shocks *should* match the struts but don't have to. Let us know what you've got in there now and we can help you fine-tune the ride quality with some suggestions.
In the summertime the sport V8 suspension is wonderful. Soon as temperatures drop below freezing, though, pretty much every road imperfection gets transmitted through the suspension. And I've tried softer struts/shocks with a sport suspension before...still gave a downright punishing ride. The key is definitely in the springs. Once they've spent 6 months below freezing they're just like having rocks in there. Get them above 40-50 degrees F and they get snappy again. After my old '88 XR7 and '88 Sport T-Bird, I swore I'd never have a Fox car with a sport suspension in wintertime again. Now I had to drive my old '88 Blue Max V8 in colder weather a few times and it handled fine over bumps, railroad tracks and potholes, even when it was below freezing. It stayed softer and more compliant than the sport suspension cars ever did. That car had the thicker XR7-spec front and rear sway bars too. Only thing not different? The springs. So...there you go. I think once you resolve the spring issue then you'll be much, much happier.
I know, a little off subject here, but how do TC springs compare, as far as cold weather stiffness/harshness?
(I havn't got to drive mine in the cold with the TC stuff under it..)
:sorry: to hijack...
My mechanic replaced the struts in the front and the shocks in the rear back in September 2005, but asking him - I might as well ask Paris Hilton what grade motor oil she uses. These guys are a Sunoco Station right under the Queensboro Bridge on the Queens side of the East River. They're ok for Oil Changes and nuts-and-bolts jobs, but they aren't very techincal. The guys on these boards are MUCH more savvy when it comes to technical debugging.
I'm going to start pursuing the LS V8 options. I will start with the springs, then work my way over to maybe replacing the ball joints/bushings, then last but not least the struts and shocks (again). I just need to convince Grok the Mechanic to order what I want.
The V6 LS I had between 1987 and 1999 was a solid handling car and it transmitted a SLIGHT bit of road feel to the steering wheel - and that was just enough. Prior to that I had a 1981 Grand Prix - and THAT thing rode like the Queen Mary :)
Thanks for the assistance guys.
Eric (And Others):
I just got off the phone with Queens Plaza Auto Parts. Their parts book for Springs, Struts and Shocks all list "1986 - 1988 Mercury Cougar - All Models EXCEPT XR7" - Meaning LS V6 and V8 all use one model, and XR7 uses another model.
I tend to believe the guys on this board more than anyone else - is the above possibly correct? If so I will order the non-XR7 Springs and Shocks and have the mechanic install them into my XR7. All four springs, two struts and two shocks will run a total of $300. Labor extra.
What do you think?
I went for another $400 in parts and $150 in labor yesterday. the mechanic undercharged me for the labor again - I'm guessing the real labor cost should have been around $300. Banner day too - that $550 I spent yesterday vaults me over the $10,000 mark (yeah you read that right).
I don't have the paperwork with me today - I will itemize this better in another post on Monday, but here are the parts replaced:
- Ball Joints - Both Sides
- Lower Control Arm Bushings
- Front springs - the R/S one was broken into two pieces. I kept the smaller piece and it's now a paperweight on my desk at work.
Today, the car gets an alignment (no time to do that yesterday) and I want the rear springs replaced as well. I'm GUESSING I may have a broken spring on the Rear R/S since I hear this metallic squeal back there every time I hit a severe bump.
Generally speaking, The car's ride and handling have improved tremendously (now do you see what $2000 worth of work will do for you??). All I've ever wanted was for that car to ride like a 2007 Chrysler 300 (half-kidding here). Whereas before yesterday, I would have rated the ride and handling no higher than a "4" on a scale of 1 - 10, I would now rate the ride around a 7 or 8. Maybe I can rate it a little higher once the rear has been improved. It still doesn't handle as well as my 1999 Dodge Intrepid, and I can't see why it doesn't. Certainly the front end is vastly improved. I may finally be able to shut up about this car - just in time to turn it over to my heir-apparent.
I'll post more later this weekend assuming the rear springs get installed today.
Well cool, I'm glad things are progressing in the right direction for ya. The alignment will help things, too. Now out back, squeaks could be from missing spring isolators, bad shock bushings, or even bolts that are backing out. Hopefully they'll figure it out without too much trouble.
Let us know the final results.
I'm just curious, what tire pressures are you running?
Here's the breakdown of what was spent on Thursday and Friday last week:
Friday 12/15/2006 ($311.53):
Replaced Rear L/S & R/S Coil Springs ($147.95)
Front-End Alignment ($55.00)
Labor ($84.50)
Thursday 12/14/2006 ($550.00):
Replaced L/S & R/S Lower Control Arm Bushings (52.95)
Replaced L/S & R/S Ball Joints (139.90)
Replaced Front L/S and R/S Coil Springs (147.95)
Replaced STR Gear Bushing (28.28)
Labor (175.00)
And yet - The car still handles a rough road like an army jeep. I know I said the car was running better, but after taking it over some rough road surfaces, the car still beats the out of it's occupants.
I am going to have the tire pressure checked on each tire - that may help. But the fact remains that despite spending more than $1400 on the suspension alone, this car isn't nearly as good as my mother's 1972 Maverick was 20 years ago. It is STILL The worst ride I have ever owned.
Next up - I am seriously considering swapping out the XR7 struts and shocks. I will get a quote from the Long Island mechanic Tuesday, since I 've gone ahead and temporarily given the car to my son, who lives out there with my Ex.
I can't believe I'm still dealing with this.
:laughing:
DUDE!!
Dude lol your profile says you live in the Bronx
you need a jeep to drive threw those streets..
and the last time they paved those streets was about 20 years ago..and thats why your moms maverick road so much better..
New York City is known for meny things.. i will list three!
Tolls!
Traffic jams!
and Hugh crators in the road!!! "pot holes!"
i know i lived in the Bronx for allmost 3 years and worked in Brooklyn for 5 years..
you really can't tell from this picture but you see a mass of water..
on the right is the throggs neck bridge. and on the left is the whitestone bridge..
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/278000-278999/278001_3_full.jpg)
this car is and allways was my daily driver..
Nick
If you are running the stock 225/60x15s you should set your tire pressures at around 32# in the front and 29-30 rear. That will smooth things out quite a bit.
B306: I understand what you mean - but this car runs like on ANY rough road - all five boroughs and Nassau & Suffolk too. It is inexplicable, and I'm not the only one who notices this - my wife hates this car, and my 17 year-old son noticed how poor it handles the road as well. I've never seen anything like it.
Mayhem: I thought stock on this car was a 70, not a 60. Regardless, I will have to check the pressure, which is harder this week since my son has it out on LI this week.
I don't regret what I've done with this car, but I am very dissapointed with it thus far.
I don't know man. I think you might just be expecting too much out of it. Either that, or your ass is incredibly sensitive. :shakeass:
I wish that were the case. But right now - I hate it, my wife hates it, and even my son notices how it beats the shiznit out of passengers over a rough road. My son weighs all of 120 pounds, so it isn't a "fat ass" issue either.
Add to that I know my LS felt 10 times more solid than this XR7. I'm not expecting enough out of this car. This car should be riding like a Mark VII by now.
This is killing me. Either my 83 (and 88 before lowering) rides like poo or you just got the lemon. My 83 realy does ride like a cushy grandma car. I hit speedbumps in parking lots and it doesn't jar you at all. Now my 88 (after lowering), you want a bad ride? Take that car for a spin. 90mph around any corner but your ass hates it.
Now I'm sorry to ask this as I'm sure you've mentioned it but have you had the sway bar end links and bracket bushings replaced? They broke on my 88 and are bad on my 83.
If you equate "sway bar end links" to "Stabilizer Bars" - Yes.
If you equate "bracket bushings" with "Lower Control Arm Bushings" - Yes again.
If you do NOT mean those parts, please let me know.
BTW Kirchman- You me more than a "Sensitive Ass" comment!! :)
Here's the complete list of suspension parts that been replaced since September 2005:
Replaced Rear L/S & R/S Coil Springs ($147.95) (12/2006)
Front-End Alignment ($55.00)(12/2006)
Replaced L/S & R/S Lower Control Arm Bushings (52.95) (12/2006)
Replaced L/S & R/S Ball Joints (139.90) (12/2006)
Replaced Front L/S and R/S Coil Springs (147.95) (12/2006)
Replaced STR Gear Bushing (28.28) (12/2006)
Tire Rotation (10/2006)
Speed Balance (10/2006)
Replaced Rear Horizontal Shocks (5/2006)
Replaced Front L/S & R/S Stabilizer Bars (5/2006)
Replaced Front L/S & R/S Tie Rod Ends (5/2006)
Front End Alignment (5/2006)
Front Struts (9/2005)
Front Brakes (9/2005)
Front Rotors (9/2005)
Rear Shocks (9/2005)
Rear Brakes (9/2005)
Rear Drums (9/2005)
L/S Wheel Cylinder (9/2005)
R/S Wheel Cylinder (9/2005)
The only thing left would be to change out the shocks and struts, I suppose. Maybe to a non-gas-charged type, though...the gas shocks/struts will definitely transmit more road feel and make things "bumpier" than non-gas shocks/struts. I hate to see you spend even more money now but that's about all I can think of. For all practical purposes you now have an LS suspension under your car.
I have P215/70/R14 tires, 1 year old Monroe Sensatrac shocks and struts, 19 year old springs and bushings, and my car rides fine. I have an LX which has basically the same set up as a LS Cougar so I have no idea why the car is riding so py. We have pot hole filled rodes in Chicago as well and the car rides fine. How old are the tires? When I changed the tires on mine after I first bought it the car rode 1 million times better. Old tires can make the car ride like too.
The tires are Ok - Maybe 2-3 Years Old and Maybe 15,000 Miles on them. Maybe they are overinflated - it sounds plausible anyway.
If deflating the tires to 32 PSI doesn't help, this car is getting LS Struts and Shocks, probably by the end of this week.
Just out of curiosity, have you checked on the background of the car? Has it ever been in a wreck?
This was one of my first thoughts.
Bent/kinked frame.
The car's first owner had it one year (1987) and the second owner had it from 1988 - 2005. I've had it between August 2005 and now. It was never in a wreck, and the second owner put money into the car as required. It was his work car and it traveled about 6,000 miles per year back and forth over the Cross Bronx Expressway and maybe the Bruckner Expressway in The Bronx. Both are among the heaviest travelled roads in the country. They connect Connecticut and New Jersey and have plenty of truck traffic on them at all times. The car was ready to be donated when he gave it to me instead. The car now has 162,000 miles on it - 4,000 of which is me running it and excercising it during the past 16 months. I've pretty much entirely restored it, pouring just under $10,500 into it, $2000 into the suspension alone. By comparison, my 1999 Dodge Intrepid has 159,000 miles (hardly any in The Bronx) on it and is light-years ahead of this Cougar in terms of performance and handling. To be fair - 12 years of technological advancements put the Dodge in a different class of car to begin with. But the car is still much more solid-feeling than the XR7. That being said - I owned a 1987 Cougar LS between 1987 and 1999 and that car performed comparably to the Dodge in terms of ride and handling (engine performance was no contest - The 1999 Dodge V6 is ten times the 1987 Mercury V6)
Things have not changed since Tuesday. The Cougar has now been relocated to Suffolk County Long Island, where the roads are much better than in the 5 boroughs of NYC. My son Nick is the primary driver. I am heading out to my 3 kids tonight on Long Island and will look to adjust the tires to their correct PSI. Then I'm testing the car on a POS road out there in Suffolk County. If I'm still not happy with the ride and handling of the car over a rough road (I don't expect to be), the car will have it's XR7 struts and shocks replaced, perhaps this weekend. After that, we live with it.
I kind of wish I could drive it. My '88 isn't smooth by any means. It's rather clunky and very harsh over bumps and pot holes. It doesn't feel very solid and every time I hit a hard bump I can imaging the car breaking in half.
When I got it, I thought it drove great. As a matter of fact it was fine until I got my new car in 2005. For about the first month or two after getting my new car, they both felt about the same. Now however, if I take the '88 out, the new car is worlds ahead of it in handling and ride.
Reading what you wrote, you drove the '87 LS until '99 when you got the Intrepid. I'm assuming that's when you got rid of the '87 so you really had nothing to compare the Intrepid to(meaning get home in the Intrepid and jump in the Cougar). So you kind of experienced something similar to what I have there. Now that you have this XR-7, you don't drive it daily and you are so used to the Intrepid that you easily see how rough the Cougar is. Much how I'm used to my new car.
That's why I say I wouldn't mind driving it to compare your Cougar to mine. I have a feeling it's just the clunky unibody construction. Maybe look into subframe connectors to stiffen it up. :dunno:
my 2 cents:
I have a 88 sport with the handling package and "harsher" springs. I have new or recent (in last 10K miles) struts, shocks, ball joints, tie rods (inner and outer), upper rear bushings, che lower arms, and steering rack. The car does transmit more road feel and harshness over uneven roads, and the ride is harsher than my 02 taurus, however when it comes to actually hitting a decent pothole I would say the bird actually takes it better and I feel it less. the taurus is on 100% OE parts with nothing done to it.
I had the original 1987 Cougar LS for about a month after I bought the 1999 Intrepid. Then I sold the Cougar to my cousin Dom, who got another 30,000 miles out of it. The car was donated in 2003 with 215,000 on the original engine (and a blown head gasket).
While it's not fair to compare a near-21st Century vehicle to a car that was developed 25 years ago, what makes this discussion interesting is that the original Cougar LS V6 and my Intrepid had comparable rides and handling. I never once said "Wow this Dodge is such a better car". The 2002 Taurus HAS to be better than the 1988 for the same reason - that car benefits from an additional 15 years of tinkering by FoMoCo.
I know I'm repeating myself but my LS was infinitely superior to the XR7 I have now. I'm into the suspension for a little over $2000 and that will increase by $400 or so within the next week (See below).
As for the "Subframe Connectors" - That's what I love about you guys - I didn't even know the Subframe HAD Connectors. Moreover, I didn't even know the car had a Subframe. "Subframe Connectors" can be the next chapter in this saga...after I swap out the XR7 Struts and Shocks.
I can sympathize with your situation. After putting a lot of money in my 92 Ranger this past year it still has some issues I find very irritating. My brother in law has expressed to me the same sentiments as you have, that after more than a decade of design and manufacturing advancement the rides can't compare.
For my part,I would rather have the money than the [COLOR="Lime"]best[/COLOR] possible ride. I might change my tune in another decade, I guess I'll see.
Good luck with the car, I think your son is getting a family jewel even if it's a "little rough cut." :)
We'll see what happens. this being a holiday week makes it hard for me to get out there to Long Island and tinker with it. At this point I don't see the need for me to the car back from him again. He can get the tire pressure checked and then he can bring the car to the mechanic out there (I'll pay the bill over the phone by credit card).
Although I don't regret restoring this particular car, I would get more satisfaction out of it if the friggin thing started handling like it should over a rough road. Over $10,000 has been spent restoring it. In any case, after this last $425, the car will remain intact unti it's next owner buys it.
You never did state what brand struts/shocks you are using.
Great suggestion...
There has to be a Ford enthusiast near you that could take it a ride, check it out and give you a 2nd opinion..
My first guess based on how bad it sounds would be springs…???
Keep us posted..
Sorry to break up the convo, but uh, my 88 Sport rides incredibly smooth. The smoothest riding car I've been in by far, and keep in mind my mom once had a 94 Lincoln Mark VIII with air ride. Dunno why yours was so rough.
1. Springs and ball joints were both replaced two weeks ago. Struts and all 6 shocks were replaced over the past 14 months. I don't know what brand my mechanic put in. It's almost pointless to ask.
2. I live in the Bronx and although the particular neighborhood I'm living in is pretty good, it isn't very close-knit and the people I do know are not car-savvy. I owned an '87 LS for 12 years and I know better than most how this XR7 SHOULD handle.
3. I am delighted that your 88 XR7 has such a good ride - it underscores my point all along - MY XR7 should ride like a baby Lincoln after all the time effort and money that has been put into it.
Well there aren't 6 shocks on the car ;) 2 struts, 2 vertical shocks and 2 horizontal ones.
Knowing what brand that was installed would be helpful. py dampers can make a world of difference in how the car rides.
Also, the springs. They could be "OEM" replacements, but there is a chance they are a "generic" application....and possibly "stiffer" than what you remember.
New parts or not.... in = out
Without knowing for certain, the ride quality is all subjective....
Not for nothin, but how do the torque boxes look in this car? How 'bout the subframe?
Speaking of that Paul.
Did the "mechanics" who installed the control arms (or replaced the bushings) torque them with the suspension loaded or hanging? If they were done while hanging, they could have preloaded the bushings and in doing so induced some additional spring rate into the suspension...making it seem like there are stiffer springs in the car then there really are.
ding ding ding
I guar-on-tee this is it. Sounds like overtorqued bushings not allowing the suspension to move properly.