General => Lounge => Topic started by: MexCougar on September 18, 2006, 11:58:04 PM
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: MexCougar on September 18, 2006, 11:58:04 PM
Well, my experience with EFI cars is very limited, due i never have any problems with my cars, until now.......The "Check Engine" light in the explorer come on. At first i stopped completely, since every warning light in a ford car is a bad light (at least in my case, i had a Cougar 84 which had only ONE warning light and it appeared only when something very bad was happening....), and pop the hood and checked everything, seemed ok. I drove carefully to home and re checked all i can. Well, the light was still there. The only thing i know about codes is how to erase them, disconecting the battery from the car some time. Well, it worked. The next week, i was doing a little trip, and after falling of a pothole, the light comes.....uhh, i stopped and did the same, disconnected the battery for a minute and the light went out, and everyone happy......
Yesterday, the light came again. Well ,i can beat that. Nop, i dont have a scanner or code reader, and here in mexico those are relatively impossible to find, not to mention how expensive is to get someone to pull codes.....
Well, i want a Code reader, and i want to know if someone have experience with those things. I want a decent brand one, since im going to order one from the US, and i want something good. What brands are good ? which type i need ?
My truck is a explorer 96, i guess it uses OBD II...
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: ipsd on September 19, 2006, 12:00:54 AM
I know we sell the auto xray at work it seems to work great.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: merccougar50 on September 19, 2006, 12:26:16 AM
OBD2 codes can be checked through a process of telling the computer to flash the check engine light. I do not have the directions on this procedure at home, but perhaps someone can post them.
or...
If you just want to read and erase codes any cheep Ford compatible scanner form Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, or other popular automotive stores will work.
:stupid: Ok. That was dumb, I'm guessing you don;t have Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart in Mexico, but I'm sure you have some chain of hardware stores that sells cheeper automotive equiptment.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: softtouch on September 19, 2006, 05:29:06 PM
Quote from: merccougar50;104559
OBD2 codes can be checked through a process of telling the computer to flash the check engine light. I do not have the directions on this procedure at home, but perhaps someone can post them.
You can't read out the code on the check engine light with OBD II. They have a five digit code starting with a letter. My Grand Marquis Had a P0401 code.
I recently bought a Actron CP9175 from AutoZone for 150 Bux. I don't know how it compares to other models.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Thunder Chicken on September 19, 2006, 06:49:02 PM
Softtouch is right - you need a scan tool for OBD-II
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: merccougar50 on September 19, 2006, 07:57:59 PM
My bad. I was thinking EEC IV.
I've never had to use that trick as I own an older snapon ?MT2500? scan tool that does all makes and models: Provided I buy/borrow the really expensive software cartredges.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: ipsd on September 19, 2006, 08:56:02 PM
Those cheapy scanners at the parts store won't work they are for ODBI not the ODBII setup. I did notice at work that equis makes a cheap ODBII scanner for like $85 american.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: vinnietbird on September 19, 2006, 09:06:11 PM
Take it to an Autozone.They will check it for free.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: cougrrr302 on September 21, 2006, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: vinnietbird;104640
Take it to an Autozone.They will check it for free.
...Mexico...
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: koldhearted1 on April 18, 2007, 12:38:37 PM
so we do have obd2 on these cars under the dash or where is it? sorry stupid question
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 18, 2007, 04:15:34 PM
NO. OBD-II was mandated for vehicles 1996 and newer. Some slightly older vehicles (1995) had it as well. That Neon in your avatar would have OBD-II.
OBD-II was mandated for two reasons: First, to tighten up emissions controls, and second, to standardize things so that any shop with a scanner should be able to diagnose an emissions related problem. For that reason there are many "standardized" codes that mean the same thing regardless of the vehicle you're pulling the code from. P0300, for example, means a random misfire. P0301 means a misfire on cylinder #1. PO302 means a misfire on cyl #2, and so on. The EPA did this figuring that if they made it easier to diagnose emissions problems people would be more likely to fix them than to stick a piece of tape over the "Check Engine" light and ignore it.
Another thing OBD-II did was to mandate the monitoring of catalytic converter health. In a pre-OBD-II car you could take the cats off completely and the computer would not know. OBD-II cars not only know, but the computer will force the engine into a "reduced performance" or "Limp home" mode if the cats are malfunctioning (or missing). For this reason if you install an off-road pipe in a 96 or newer Mustang you need MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) eliminators to trick the computer into thinking that the cats are there and working.
OBD-II also will flash the check engine light if anything goes wrong that may damage the catalytic converters. The EPA mandated this to encourage people to have repairs done - a flashing light is much more alarming (and annoying) than one that is on steady. The average person, when they see a flashing light in their dash, will take the car right to a shop.
OBD-II got a bit worse in 1998 when evaporative emissions (fumes your car gives off when it's not even running) came under the rule. This required changing fuel systems (hence "returnless" systems in newer cars) and having a completely sealed fuel system. The sealed fuel system causes a huge headache for dealerships, manufacturers and technicians because something as stupid as having a loose gas cap can turn on the check engine light, and tightening the cap will not turn it off. Turning the light off requires a trip to the shop (the code it sets, P0440 - "Gross leak detected in EVAP system", is resident, meaning once the problem is set it stays in computer memory and keeps the light on, even after the problem goes away), even though there's no real problem. For that reason you see big warning stickers on your fuel filler about tightening the gas cap.
So, after typing all that (dunno why I did), your 83-88 T-Bird or Cougar does not have OBD-II, and OBD-II is not something "under the dash" in the sense that it's some kind of black box - it is simply your engine computer. A much more complicated one than the OBD-1 computer in older cars.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: ipsd on April 18, 2007, 04:20:12 PM
ODBII didn't start until 94-95 somtime close to that. So we have ODBI in our cars. The conector to get the codes is under the hood. Really it is two plugs a weird shaped plug and a single wire plug. should be next to the battery.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: CougarSE on April 18, 2007, 04:22:58 PM
Our cars are OBD-0. Three digit code computers are the OBD-1 (91 and up)
Also after 250 (or so) cycles of the ignition key the computer will clear a code that it no longer see's an issue with. I.E after starting you're car 250 times after you've pounded it in your head that the gas cap must be on.. the light should go off.
So yeah.. The light will go off in about a year.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: CougarSE on April 18, 2007, 04:25:48 PM
Ford was odd about its roll out of OBD-II. All 94 -95 4.6 MN-12's have OBD-II where as the 94 and 95 3.8 cars are OBD-I
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 18, 2007, 04:39:01 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;141096
Ford was odd about its roll out of OBD-II. All 94 -95 4.6 MN-12's have OBD-II where as the 94 and 95 3.8 cars are OBD-I
Actually, the 1994- Mustang 3.8L cars were OBDII. But you're right that the 1994 4.6L in the T-Bird & Cougar received OBDII (a few differences between the 1996 OBDII - though).
Edit, if you meant 3.8L strictly in the MN12 for 1994-1995, you would be correct that it was still OBDI.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 04:41:39 PM
Holy old thread Batman! :D :hick:
So my trucks random limp-home ness with no CEL is probably the 11 year old cat huh? ...
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: DakotaEpic on April 18, 2007, 04:56:14 PM
Hahaha, I just sneezed and now I'm seeing spots...:hick:
Anyhow. Carm hit the nail on the head. OBD-II is basically an emmisions monitoring system. But it also alows for the tuning of the car. It's quite indepth when you get to plug it into a program such as Autotap, or EFI Live or HP Tuners. It's still kind of funny I think that all I had to do is have a buddy plug his computer with HPTuners into my car, and delete codes for emmisions parts. I no longer have Cats, EGR, or AIR on my car. Plus I just got a letter in the mail for emissions check and Registration... .
So your problem is most likely somthing that's pretty stupid and easy to fix. That's related to a bad O2 sensor or your cat's are dying, or something like that. If you have a laptop I'd suggest ordering AutoTap, it'll read and clear codes, and it's a data logger and instrument panel type thing.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: P71 on April 18, 2007, 06:14:36 PM
AutoTap huh? Where does one find this? It would be useful cause the Grand Prix GT and the GTO are both OBDII as well. I already replaced the front O2 sensor, which made the problem go away for about 4 months. I'm thinking I need to save a few checks and go buy a long-tube header, new cat, cat-bcak, and 2 O2's :D I'll go 17's! :hick:
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Billyf17 on April 18, 2007, 06:36:18 PM
Quote from: koldhearted1;141057
so we do have obd2 on these cars under the dash or where is it? sorry stupid question
96 Explorer....not 84 Cougar.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Billyf17 on April 18, 2007, 07:01:34 PM
It seems here you can find it: http://www.autotap.com/
Cheapish too. I'll have to pick up one when I go turbo.....on everything.............:rolleyes:
And to clear up one thing....in 94 they knew OBDII was on the horizon. The EPA mandated that all new engine families (4.6L) were to have OBDII. Although they had it...it wasn't until 96 that every single vehicle produced had to have a standardized OBDII program. So the 94-95 Cougs/Birds had a retarded version of OBDII. Most cars in 94 had a connector, but what you can get out of it isn't very "standard." Our 95 Mustang 5.0 has one...but I have yet to hook it up to my personal or any of the shop's scanner. Still to this day, though, not everyone follows this standardization of OBDII. *COvolkswagenUGH*.......they use 5 digit VW only codes, so when you pull codes from a VW, you get an OBD code that says something like....ok...what caused it? O2 sensor......???........ok...what is wrong with it?.......which one is it? The VW code says O2 Sensor (Bank 1, Sensor 1) Voltage too low.
OBDIII will once and for all take care of this nonsense. It took until 2005 to find a suitable protocal to standardize diagnostic systems for crying out loud...(CAN - Controller Area Network). Before 05, there were hundreds of ways ECU's communicated codes to scanners....which is why some scanners can't read some cars, and why most scanners require updates for new cars. OBDII was far from standardized, but it was MUCH better than OBDI.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 18, 2007, 07:08:00 PM
Quote from: Billyf17;141127
So the 94-95 Cougs/Birds had a retarded version of OBDII.
Please clarify the above statement.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Billyf17 on April 18, 2007, 09:11:07 PM
The only reason it is there is because it HAS to be there....but the OBDII isn't fully functional. It still is a Ford specific diagnostic programing strategy. It gives limited information and does its job to the least extent possible. 94-95 Cougars/T-birds are still dyno tested here and not OBDII tested. I'm pretty sure that the testing machine for OBDII vehicles would reject one because it isn't a 96-newer. In the emissions class, the teacher instructed us to dyno test anything pre-96, regaurdless of the vehicle having OBDII or not, and Philly is the most strict district in PA, so the state doesn't trust 94-95 OBDII systems to work properly or even read properly on the machine. Like I said...it's there because the EPA says it has to be there. But it is NOT OBDII in the manner a 96-newer car is.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Thunder Chicken on April 18, 2007, 09:31:35 PM
I dunno about Ford, having all my training on GM, but what I would assume Billyf17 means is that OBD-II was implemented in 94-95 MN12's, but (to use a computer term), in a Beta kind of way. If Microsoft had done it, it would have been MS OBD-II RC1 :D They were close to being fully OBD-II, but not quite.
GM did the same thing for several 94-95 models. They knew OBD-II was on the horizon, so with any vehicles that were significantly changed for 94-95 model year they engineered the cars for OBD-II to prevent having to re-engineer them again in '96. Back in '94 when I was taking GM courses on new models we were told that the new vehicles were OBD-II ready, but not OBD-II compliant because the implementation was not yet fully standardized. For example, a '95 Pontiac Bonneville had a labotomized OBD-II system - it spit codes out in the P0XXX format but did not monitor for misfire, so the P030X codes were not present.
OBD-II also spelled the end of some of GM's older technologies like TBI and CPI. Those old fuel injection systems simply were not precise enough for OBD-II.
All manufacturers have manufacturer-specific codes, not just VW. With GM a code that starts with P1 or usually means it's GM specific. P0300 would be a standard code for misfire, P1380 would be a manufacturer specific one (in this case, ABS controller failure. ABS is non emissions related so is not required to be standardized).
CougarSE - That 3-digit thing must be Ford only. GM used two digit codes right up until and including 1995. Anybody that's ever had a pre-96 GM and had the check engine light come on would know about code 12 (normal for KOEO - it's a "no ignition pulse" code, which of course is normal with the engine off) and code 32 (EGR system fault)
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: CougarSE on April 18, 2007, 09:45:02 PM
I got you on those 95 GM's. I remember people coming to autozone to have codes pulled on 95 blazers.. things had OBDII ports.. but the scanner wouldn't even power on off the plug... and other GM's had a "beta" like OBDII without the two pins in the "old" plug to jumper it to pull codes.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 18, 2007, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: Billyf17;141156
The only reason it is there is because it HAS to be there....but the OBDII isn't fully functional. It still is a Ford specific diagnostic programing strategy. It gives limited information and does its job to the least extent possible. 94-95 Cougars/T-birds are still dyno tested here and not OBDII tested. I'm pretty sure that the testing machine for OBDII vehicles would reject one because it isn't a 96-newer. In the emissions class, the teacher instructed us to dyno test anything pre-96, regaurdless of the vehicle having OBDII or not, and Philly is the most strict district in PA, so the state doesn't trust 94-95 OBDII systems to work properly or even read properly on the machine. Like I said...it's there because the EPA says it has to be there. But it is NOT OBDII in the manner a 96-newer car is.
It is OBD II but it's not "fully compliant". But on that topic, though 1996 was the year that OBD II was required, the systems didn't have to actually be fully compliant until a few years later, right? You sound like you know more about the EPA side. As mentioned above, it does have differences, but it does have several of the OBD II emission monitors and it considered OBD II. An OBD II device is needed to read the 94/95 4.6L. Unfortunately my EEC experience doesn't cover the EEC-V as much. I do know from personal experience that the 1994 4.6L OBD II does not trigger a misfire detection very well.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Billyf17 on April 18, 2007, 10:21:29 PM
Thunder Chicken- I know about P1 codes...I'm sorry I didn't specify what I meant with VW. They have P0 (required), P1, and XXXXX codes. So you could get a 14506, a 15473, or a 16885, which means didly to anyone without super expensive scanner software. Unlike P0 codes, VW codes do not have an easy to translate classification system; ex. a P04XX - Evap Leak, P03XX - Misfire. VW codes come up on a regular scanner as P0 codes, some P1 codes come up as well. But these codes are very generic, instead of a P0302, a P0300 comes up, which is Misfire Detected....thank you very much...if you were to look up the VW code...it would be like 17205 - Cyl. 2 Misfire Detected. The code books for VW's are like the size of War and Peace :p.
JeremyT- OBDII was fully compliant in 96, it had to be...end of story. But it was refined in 98 and again in 2001. Hence the reason a car can pass with 2 readiness monitors not set from 1996 until 2000, but can only have 1 monitor not ready from 2001 on. And the DLC on 94 4.6's might give codes..but they still use the EEC-IV programing. Meaning 90% of the time there is an EEC-IV style connector under the dash somewhere. This is because again, the 4.6 was new in 94 and was required to be "OBDII". Which meant, in 94 and 95, that the vehicle had an OBDII connector. But Ford, as did probably everyone else, waited until 96 to fully sync the ECU up with OBDII standards and EPA regulation.
If you didn't know, the EPA sets emissions standards every year for new cars. They keep tightening up on the standards, the manufactures have to keep up with their controls. Look at a 96 4.6l and a 2004 4.6l. Completely different. Coilpacks to COP, return loop fuel system to returnless. Ford didn't want to, they had to. But when the technology allowed, the EPA refined the OBDII system, misfire detection is better, some monitors disappeared because they were obsolete, thermostat monitoring, and the new CAN system.
BTW...the clean air act gets revisited in 3 years....look for OBDIII after that...and look for Gore to lead his charge on the EPA........unless we have a record cold 3 years.....HA.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 18, 2007, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: Billyf17;141177
Thunder Chicken- I know about P1 codes...I'm sorry I didn't specify what I meant with VW. They have P0 (required), P1, and XXXXX codes. So you could get a 14506, a 15473, or a 16885, which means didly to anyone without super expensive scanner software. Unlike P0 codes, VW codes do not have an easy to translate classification system; ex. a P04XX - Evap Leak, P03XX - Misfire. VW codes come up on a regular scanner as P0 codes, some P1 codes come up as well. But these codes are very generic, instead of a P0302, a P0300 comes up, which is Misfire Detected....thank you very much...if you were to look up the VW code...it would be like 17205 - Cyl. 2 Misfire Detected. The code books for VW's are like the size of War and Peace :p.
JeremyT- OBDII was fully compliant in 96, it had to be...end of story. But it was refined in 98 and again in 2001. Hence the reason a car can pass with 2 readiness monitors not set from 1996 until 2000, but can only have 1 monitor not ready from 2001 on. And the DLC on 94 4.6's might give codes..but they still use the EEC-IV programing. Meaning 90% of the time there is an EEC-IV style connector under the dash somewhere. This is because again, the 4.6 was new in 94 and was required to be "OBDII". Which meant, in 94 and 95, that the vehicle had an OBDII connector. But Ford, as did probably everyone else, waited until 96 to fully sync the ECU up with OBDII standards and EPA regulation.
If you didn't know, the EPA sets emissions standards every year for new cars. They keep tightening up on the standards, the manufactures have to keep up with their controls. Look at a 96 4.6l and a 2004 4.6l. Completely different. Coilpacks to COP, return loop fuel system to returnless. Ford didn't want to, they had to. But when the technology allowed, the EPA refined the OBDII system, misfire detection is better, some monitors disappeared because they were obsolete, thermostat monitoring, and the new CAN system.
BTW...the clean air act gets revisited in 3 years....look for OBDIII after that...and look for Gore to lead his charge on the EPA........unless we have a record cold 3 years.....HA.
The only thing I could quickly find in regard to my question for vehicles not having to be "fully compliant", but could still be OBD II, in 1996 was this:
Quote
Similar standards were incorporated into the federal Clean Air Act in 1990 which also required all 49-state vehicles to be OBDII equipped by 1996 -- with one loophole. The OBDII systems would not have to be fully compliant until 1999. So some 1996 OBDII systems may lack one of the features normally required to meet the OBDII specs, such as the evaporative emissions purge test.
Maybe the source is wrong. It sounds like the EPA
In regard to Ford's EEC programming in the '94/'95 it still had several monitors required for OBD II that monitored the emissions system. It did have a misfire monitor, catalytic monitor, etc. And it did output OBD II codes and could be read with a generic OBD II reader. That's what I was referring to. I don't disagree with your comments that it differed from 1996, but for the discussion here, I do believe its "OBD II", in short.
I'm not aware of any of the '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougars 4.6Ls having an EEC-IV connector in addition to the OBD II connector under the passenger side dash. I've owned a few and never found or known of such - atleast from my memory.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: Billyf17 on April 19, 2007, 12:19:55 AM
I'm sorry I meant under the hood. Most of the time, from what I'm told, they put the EEC-IV connector on these vehicles so dealerships could use current diagnostic tools to read the information from the computer. Mostly because of the limited output of the OBDII connector. It did read OBDII codes and monitors, but did little in the way of diagnostics.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 19, 2007, 01:00:24 AM
Quote from: Billyf17;141235
I'm sorry I meant under the hood. Most of the time, from what I'm told, they put the EEC-IV connector on these vehicles so dealerships could use current diagnostic tools to read the information from the computer. Mostly because of the limited output of the OBDII connector. It did read OBDII codes and monitors, but did little in the way of diagnostics.
Are you sure about that? Even the manufactures of the EEC-IV compatible scan tools (even cheap ones) specifically state that they will not work on the '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougar 4.6L equipped.
So if the EEC-IV connector really was there and was accessible in addition to the OBD II type connector, I would think that those scan tools would not have such a reference and would be widely used. The non-OBDII tools are a cheaper than OBD-II compliant tools.
For what it's worth, I never seen an EEC-IV connector under the hood of a '94/'95 4.6L T-Bird/Cougar in addition to the OBD II type connector - for the EEC.
Now, there is an EEC-IV type connector under the hood of those cars, but it's used for the ABS equipped '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougar (and even up until '97) to read the ABS computer and not for the EEC itself.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: P71 on April 19, 2007, 10:13:24 AM
Quote from: JeremyT;141247
Are you sure about that? Even the manufactures of the EEC-IV compatible scan tools (even cheap ones) specifically state that they will not work on the '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougar 4.6L equipped.
I disagree with you. I have a $35 Ford EECIV Code Scanner from CSK (3 years old) that specifically lists every car it will work on, and under Thunderbird/Cougar it goes all the way to 1995. I've never had one nor worked on one, but the book clearly states the scanner will work on those vehicles.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 19, 2007, 10:48:06 AM
Quote from: Aerobird Motorsports;141285
I disagree with you. I have a $35 Ford EECIV Code Scanner from CSK (3 years old) that specifically lists every car it will work on, and under Thunderbird/Cougar it goes all the way to 1995. I've never had one nor worked on one, but the book clearly states the scanner will work on those vehicles.
Well, it will work on the Thunderbird up until 1995, but only with the 3.8L since it was still EEC-IV.
How much to bet that it won't work on the '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougar with the 4.6L? That was what I was referring to.
All scanners I've seen make a reference to the '94/'95 T-Bird/Cougar with the 4.6L using OBDII and not being compatible with an EEC-IV type scanner. Yours is likely no different.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 19, 2007, 10:52:15 AM
Quote from: Billyf17;141177
And the DLC on 94 4.6's might give codes..but they still use the EEC-IV programing.
I missed this, but they actually use EEC-V, not EEC-IV.
Title: Those Computer Controlled Engines....
Post by: JeremyT on April 19, 2007, 11:51:42 AM
Actron is one of those "cheap" scanners that is commonly found in retail stores:
Actron CP9015 Ford Code Scanner: http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16153
Quote
These 1994 - 1995 Ford vehicles are OBD-II compliant and are not supported by the Ford Code Scanner CP9015. They require an OBD II compatible Scan Tool like Actron's SUPER AutoScanner CP9145 or the OBD II AutoScanner CP9135.
1994-95 Ford Thunderbird 4.6L 1994-95 Ford Mustang 3.8L 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis 1995 Ford Windstar ALL 1995 Lincoln Continental 4.6L 1995 Lincoln Town Car 4.6L 1994-95 Mercury Cougar 4.6L 1995 Ford Ranger ALL